The Eye: what was it? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 10-07-2009, 05:33 AM

That actually sums it up quite succintly. Saron's gaze and will is his All-seeing Eye, much as the force of his armies is described as his hands and fingers. Though I do still hold deep in my heart that the eye in the mirror if not Sauron's literal eye resembles it in apperance, he must have gotten the idea for the shape from somewhere.
Your comments of Saruman actually also works. Much as Saron desired ultimate order and personal control of the world (all under my All seeing gaze). Saruman, at least intially professes to wanting to rule the world becuse he thinks it needs his and the other wizard's guidance i.e. a "guiding hand" As for the WK symbol, well, his current residence did used to be called the Tower of the Moon, and the Moon has always been associated with Magic.

One final aside, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Would most of this forum agree that, inaproppriate and undesirable as Peter Jackson's depiction of Sauron is, its still light years better than the way he was shown in the Rankin Bass Cartoon, I mean what was that, a compass rose?, a sixteenth century chart of the sun and ther planets??

skip spence · 10-07-2009, 06:54 AM

Thanks for the replies. As you may have noticed in the op I am well aware that The Eye is primarily a metaphor and a symbol and certainly not the physical manifestation of Sauron himself. I even quoted the same letter as you did in my previous post, Ibrin. I think that from an outside perspective, The Lidless Eye is just that and nothing more, a metaphor Tolkien uses to symbolize the never sleeping watchfulness of Sauron (though one wonders how fitting the cat-eye likeness really is, seeing how cats spend the great majority of their lives sleeping).

It’s certainly a very powerful one too, with applications that go beyond Middle Earth. To me it symbolizes the need for control in a totalitarian society - come to think of it, totalitarianism isn’t at all necessary for one to imagine how The Eye is on you these days. As an aside, a friend of mine got busted for possession of marijuana a few years back and one of the consequences was being ordered to go see a doctor at his own expense to prove he was no addict. “You know that big Eye in the LotR movies?” the doctor asked my mate who nodded. “That Eye is on you now, it's watching you carefully and it isn’t going to lose focus for a looong time” The good doctor was referring to the state machinery.

Yet, from an inside perspective I’ve began to wonder if The Eye isn’t perhaps more than a symbol after all. This image is just so universal. Frodo sees The Eye before he (in all likelihood) learns that Sauron uses this symbol, and Galadriel immediately recognizes the vision, because she has it too, the very same it seems. Didn’t Bilbo see the Eye too, many years before the events in Lord of the Rings? The Orcs often refer to The Eye when speaking about Sauron and his intent, and I very much doubt that many if any of them actually have seen the Dark Lord in the flesh, seen his actual eyes. No, clearly this image isn’t accidental. It must have been chosen by Sauron himself, and I believe he uses it as a representation of himself and his power. The vision of The Eye is something that he projects, as a sort of visual manifestation of his intent to control and subjugate.

With this in mind, would it be so hard to believe that there actually is a red eye on top of Barad Dur? That opening quote seems to suggest that Frodo and Sam though so, though they didn’t see it directly, only sensed it. That would be pretty intimidating for the Orcses I think, seeing a glowing red beacon peering down at them, much like how Frodo and Sam saw the light in the tower at Cirith Ungol, yet with much added malice. I included the description of Minas Morgul because it actually describes something similar to PJ’s forkeye in the movies (and this is most likely a literal description) – a revolving top course of a tower shaped like a ghostly face, watching over the lands with ‘magic’ means, as there would be no need for revolving if there were actual people standing in the windows. Why can't Barad Dur have a similar feature? Hm. I also think there's something unsatisfactory with the image of Sauron leaning out of a plain window for hours on end, trying to decipher what’s going on outside the Morannon. It seems undignified somehow. I’d much rather picture him sitting on his dark throne in front of the Palantir, which he’s managed to hook up to his terrifying Eye device.

And Boro, I'm still waiting for your explanation of the quote in the op. Edit: Sorry, now I see that you did, though I'm not entirely convinced. Should think before I speak

Lastly, while there was no white hand on top of Orthanc, there certainly was a large one outside of Isengard.

Inziladun · 10-07-2009, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yet, from an inside perspective I’ve began to wonder if The Eye isn’t perhaps more than a symbol after all. This image is just so universal. Frodo sees The Eye before him long before he (in all likelihood) learns that Sauron uses this symbol, and Galadriel immediately recognizes the vision, because she has it too, the very same it seems. Didn’t Bilbo see the Eye too, long before the events in Lord of the Rings? The Orcs often refer to The Eye when speaking about Sauron and his intent, and I very much doubt that many if any of them actually have seen the Dark Lord in the flesh, seen his actual eyes. No, clearly this image isn’t accidental. It must have been chosen by Sauron himself, and I believe he uses it as a representation of himself and his power.

I think Bilbo said he felt as if the Ring was an 'eye' on him, but didn't descibe it more plainly.
When Pippin looked in the Palantír of Orthanc, he saw Sauron in person, but unhelpfully gave no specifics as to Sauron's facial appearance.

As an aside, weren't dragon's eyes said to be catlike? Would that have some influence with Sauron choosing that as his military symbol, and his own personal representation of himself?

ElanorFB · 10-07-2009, 01:55 PM

I've always thought of the eye as being a spiritual (for lack of a better term) manifestation. Sort of operating on a slightly different plane. Frodo is thus able to see it/ feel it more clearly due to the ring. Others may feel a sense of dread when under its gaze/control. While it was maybe a little big in the movie, I thought it operated fine as an image.

Alfirin · 10-07-2009, 04:54 PM

[QUOTE=As an aside, weren't dragon's eyes said to be catlike? Would that have some influence with Sauron choosing that as his military symbol, and his own personal representation of himself?[/QUOTE]

This part at least I feel safe speculating on. In all proababilty Sauron (or Tolkein) chose the eye to be slit pupiled and catlike simply because, to a human that is more menacing. we have a prettly deeply ingrained racial terror of things with slit pupiled eyes way back when we were cavemen, most of the things that had eyes like that (big cats, big reptiles like crocodiles very large lizards (I'm thinking of somthing like Australia's fear lizard here NOT dinosaurs) were predetors of us or at least degerous to us (like poisonous snakes) such eyes are also usually only found on nocturnal animals and we've alaways been a little afraid of tem as well.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-07-2009, 09:23 PM

I think that what's really at play here is Tolkien's 'ear' for language-games. There's a wonderful pun at work surely: the eye/I of Sauron, blazing out across the landscape. He's not able to manifest as a body but as an ego only. The lack of physicality and the overwhelming nature of his gazing self ("I") is in direct contrast to the intense physical suffering of Frodo (as his body is attacked by morgul blade, sting and starvation, then tooth) and the slow erosion of his own self, his own "I" which finally succumbs to the Ring. In the end of course, it is the humble "I/eye" of Frodo, which looks for and after others, that triumphs over the prideful "I/eye" of Sauron that wishes to call all other eyes to regarding its own gaze.

skip spence · 10-08-2009, 09:51 AM

That's an interesting reading, Fordim. A bit obvious, only.

It could also be that the character Sauron is part of a prophetic vision Tolkien had regarding the rise of the heretic Rastafarian movement in Jamaica. Sauron is the mystic union of Eye & I, and is worshipped by his followers like a living God on earth, just like Haile Selassie. Think about it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boro

Capitalization of "the Eye" being perhaps the most important thing, because capitalizing denotes a specific person or place. Like Saruman referring to Sauron as "that Power." If Saruman was talking about the random idea of accumulating power, it would not be capitalized. Since it is, Saruman is talking about joining Sauron, Sauron being "that Power." Or it is like when Gandalf in The Shire uses "Ring-maker." Yet again the capitalization means Gandalf is referring to a specific person, and yet again this "Ring-maker" is Sauron.

The capitalized Eye, therefor is referring to not a spot-light on-top of a tower, but Sauron himself.

Was just about to point out in triumph that the e isn't in fact capitalized in the Mount Doom quote, but checking the book I realised that I'd made a typing mistake, and that it really was. Blasted!

Quote:

Plus Frodo wasn't looking at the top of Barad-dur at all, it was through some great unknown window, that is where Frodo gets the red flicker of a piercing Eye.

When I checked the passage again I learned a few things that I missed last time round. Firstly, Frodo did see the top of Barad-Dûr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LorR; Mount Doom

...and then he saw ... the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-Dûr

Also there is apparently a window up there, since the dark entrance into Mount Doom is described (by the Author) as "gazing straight back to the Window of the Eye in Sauron's shadow-mantled fortress."

A curious thing though is that when Frodo and Sam get a glimpse of the Dark Tower they should be looking straight at the Window of the Eye, since they are close to the entrance it is facing, but The Eye is then turned North, towards Morannon, and since Mount Doom is North-West of Barad-Dûr, they can't see the window directly, it is behind the Tower from their direction. Apparently the Eye is gazing out of not the Window of the Eye, but out of another less renowned window.

Unless the Window of the Eye can actually revolve.

Boromir88 · 10-08-2009, 01:02 PM

Or the Window of the Eye refers to where Sauron sits in his tower watches and waits for victory, something that Denethor has taken after as well:

Quote:

Denethor laughed bitterly. "Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."~The Siege of Gondor

Inziladun · 10-08-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

A curious thing though is that when Frodo and Sam get a glimpse of the Dark Tower they should be looking straight at the Window of the Eye, since they are close to the entrance it is facing, but The Eye is then turned North, towards Morannon, and since Mount Doom is North-West of Barad-Dûr, they can't see the window directly, it is behind the Tower from their direction. Apparently the Eye is gazing out of not the Window of the Eye, but out of another less renowned window.

There's an interesting parallel with Sauron looking out from Barad-dûr with the Eye.

Quote:

Then [Sauron] made [Minas Tirith] into a watchtower for Morgoth, a stronghold a evil, and a menace; and the fair isle of Tol Sirion became accursed, and it was called Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves. No living creature could pass through that vale that Sauron did not espy from the tower where he sat.

Silm Of the Ruin of Beleriand

The power of far-seeing seems to be the same, though it is not used with the Eye imagery.
I'm mostly convinced that the Eye was mainly symbolic, a contrivance of Sauron in Third Age 'tyrant' guise to appear more threatening, to his forces and his enemies alike. As someone else may have mentioned, the idea of his Great Eye constantly observing them was probably a considerable motivation for his troops as well.

Boromir88 · 10-07-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skip spence

And Boro, I'm still waiting for your explanation of the quote in the op. Edit: Sorry, now I see that you did, though I'm not entirely convinced. Should think before I speak

I was about to respond to this with a "look above,"

but didn't see the Edit note, so we would have both been guilty.

Anyway, for a more detailed explanation of why this wasn't a "real" vision of Frodos, per se, but why I think it's a delusional (almost day-dreaming) vision caused by the Ring...

Note after the vision, Frodo collapses and tells Sam he can't stop himself from trying to grab for the Ring. When looking at it as a reader, this is one of the most terrifying things we witness to Frodo. He is literally losing complete control over himself, and he is losing control of his own body. "Help, me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can't stop it!" Morsul's humorous Star Wars reference is not so far off taking Frodo's episode after the vision into account.

Plus Frodo wasn't looking at the top of Barad-dur at all, it was through some great unknown window, that is where Frodo gets the red flicker of a piercing Eye.

Capitalization of "the Eye" being perhaps the most important thing, because capitalizing denotes a specific person or place. Like Saruman referring to Sauron as "that Power." If Saruman was talking about the random idea of accumulating power, it would not be capitalized. Since it is, Saruman is talking about joining Sauron, Sauron being "that Power." Or it is like when Gandalf in The Shire uses "Ring-maker." Yet again the capitalization means Gandalf is referring to a specific person, and yet again this "Ring-maker" is Sauron.

The capitalized Eye, therefor is referring to not a spot-light on-top of a tower, but Sauron himself. Specifically Sauron's will that held his Orcs in thraldom as the Home X quote shows when Morgoths will is then referred to as his "Eye." (Think of the symbol for Big Brother in George Orwell's 1984...what was it?

)

Whatever the case it is definitely a symbol that Sauron pushed, one to represent himself. There would be no need though for an eye spot-light, because the orcs have the symbol on their helmets, which serves as a pleasant reminder to them of what Grishnakh tells Ugluk: "Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool: but the Great Eye is on him." (The Uruk-hai) Grishnakh isn't saying Sauron's got his spot-light pointed to Isengard, because Sauron had more important things to focus on than Saruman, but it was a message from one Dark Lord's servant to the wannabe Dark Lord's servant...Saruman isn't trusted and he's being watched.

10-07-2009, 06:54 AM	#2
skip spence shadow of a doubt Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Back on the streets Posts: 1,125	Thanks for the replies. As you may have noticed in the op I am well aware that The Eye is primarily a metaphor and a symbol and certainly not the physical manifestation of Sauron himself. I even quoted the same letter as you did in my previous post, Ibrin. I think that from an outside perspective, The Lidless Eye is just that and nothing more, a metaphor Tolkien uses to symbolize the never sleeping watchfulness of Sauron (though one wonders how fitting the cat-eye likeness really is, seeing how cats spend the great majority of their lives sleeping). It’s certainly a very powerful one too, with applications that go beyond Middle Earth. To me it symbolizes the need for control in a totalitarian society - come to think of it, totalitarianism isn’t at all necessary for one to imagine how The Eye is on you these days. As an aside, a friend of mine got busted for possession of marijuana a few years back and one of the consequences was being ordered to go see a doctor at his own expense to prove he was no addict. “You know that big Eye in the LotR movies?” the doctor asked my mate who nodded. “That Eye is on you now, it's watching you carefully and it isn’t going to lose focus for a looong time” The good doctor was referring to the state machinery. Yet, from an inside perspective I’ve began to wonder if The Eye isn’t perhaps more than a symbol after all. This image is just so universal. Frodo sees The Eye before he (in all likelihood) learns that Sauron uses this symbol, and Galadriel immediately recognizes the vision, because she has it too, the very same it seems. Didn’t Bilbo see the Eye too, many years before the events in Lord of the Rings? The Orcs often refer to The Eye when speaking about Sauron and his intent, and I very much doubt that many if any of them actually have seen the Dark Lord in the flesh, seen his actual eyes. No, clearly this image isn’t accidental. It must have been chosen by Sauron himself, and I believe he uses it as a representation of himself and his power. The vision of The Eye is something that he projects, as a sort of visual manifestation of his intent to control and subjugate. With this in mind, would it be so hard to believe that there actually is a red eye on top of Barad Dur? That opening quote seems to suggest that Frodo and Sam though so, though they didn’t see it directly, only sensed it. That would be pretty intimidating for the Orcses I think, seeing a glowing red beacon peering down at them, much like how Frodo and Sam saw the light in the tower at Cirith Ungol, yet with much added malice. I included the description of Minas Morgul because it actually describes something similar to PJ’s forkeye in the movies (and this is most likely a literal description) – a revolving top course of a tower shaped like a ghostly face, watching over the lands with ‘magic’ means, as there would be no need for revolving if there were actual people standing in the windows. Why can't Barad Dur have a similar feature? Hm. I also think there's something unsatisfactory with the image of Sauron leaning out of a plain window for hours on end, trying to decipher what’s going on outside the Morannon. It seems undignified somehow. I’d much rather picture him sitting on his dark throne in front of the Palantir, which he’s managed to hook up to his terrifying Eye device. And Boro, I'm still waiting for your explanation of the quote in the op. Edit: Sorry, now I see that you did, though I'm not entirely convinced. Should think before I speak Lastly, while there was no white hand on top of Orthanc, there certainly was a large one outside of Isengard. __________________ "You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 10-07-2009 at 08:40 AM. Reason: Cleaning up

10-07-2009, 01:55 PM	#4
ElanorFB Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 6	I've always thought of the eye as being a spiritual (for lack of a better term) manifestation. Sort of operating on a slightly different plane. Frodo is thus able to see it/ feel it more clearly due to the ring. Others may feel a sense of dread when under its gaze/control. While it was maybe a little big in the movie, I thought it operated fine as an image. __________________ The Lord of the Rings Cookbook

10-07-2009, 09:23 PM	#6
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	I think that what's really at play here is Tolkien's 'ear' for language-games. There's a wonderful pun at work surely: the eye/I of Sauron, blazing out across the landscape. He's not able to manifest as a body but as an ego only. The lack of physicality and the overwhelming nature of his gazing self ("I") is in direct contrast to the intense physical suffering of Frodo (as his body is attacked by morgul blade, sting and starvation, then tooth) and the slow erosion of his own self, his own "I" which finally succumbs to the Ring. In the end of course, it is the humble "I/eye" of Frodo, which looks for and after others, that triumphs over the prideful "I/eye" of Sauron that wishes to call all other eyes to regarding its own gaze. __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

10-07-2009, 05:33 AM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	That actually sums it up quite succintly. Saron's gaze and will is his All-seeing Eye, much as the force of his armies is described as his hands and fingers. Though I do still hold deep in my heart that the eye in the mirror if not Sauron's literal eye resembles it in apperance, he must have gotten the idea for the shape from somewhere. Your comments of Saruman actually also works. Much as Saron desired ultimate order and personal control of the world (all under my All seeing gaze). Saruman, at least intially professes to wanting to rule the world becuse he thinks it needs his and the other wizard's guidance i.e. a "guiding hand" As for the WK symbol, well, his current residence did used to be called the Tower of the Moon, and the Moon has always been associated with Magic. One final aside, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Would most of this forum agree that, inaproppriate and undesirable as Peter Jackson's depiction of Sauron is, its still light years better than the way he was shown in the Rankin Bass Cartoon, I mean what was that, a compass rose?, a sixteenth century chart of the sun and ther planets??

10-07-2009, 04:54 PM	#5
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	[QUOTE=As an aside, weren't dragon's eyes said to be catlike? Would that have some influence with Sauron choosing that as his military symbol, and his own personal representation of himself?[/QUOTE] This part at least I feel safe speculating on. In all proababilty Sauron (or Tolkein) chose the eye to be slit pupiled and catlike simply because, to a human that is more menacing. we have a prettly deeply ingrained racial terror of things with slit pupiled eyes way back when we were cavemen, most of the things that had eyes like that (big cats, big reptiles like crocodiles very large lizards (I'm thinking of somthing like Australia's fear lizard here NOT dinosaurs) were predetors of us or at least degerous to us (like poisonous snakes) such eyes are also usually only found on nocturnal animals and we've alaways been a little afraid of tem as well.