The Eye: what was it?

[Boromir88]

A metaphor for the presense, control, and watchful will of Sauron...nothing more. No time to explain that quote you give.

However, I can point out the "Eye" is first a metaphor associated with Morgoth and then Tolkien uses it again for Sauron in LOTR.

[Morsul the Dark]

Duh, It's a tractor beam To pull the ring to Sauron

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

We actually get to "see" sauron's eye in the story I think; unless I've been wrong all these years, I've always beleived that the Eye Frodo saw in Galadriel's Mirror was Saurons actual factual physical eye that if one were to physically be in the room with Sauron and look at him in person he would have eyes as described, yellow, slit pupiled, wreathed in flame and ringed with darkness (as for the lidless thing, I dont know whether sauron actually had no eyelids of this was a metephor for the fact he never slept and therefore never closed them)

I dunno, don't you think it seems strange only to see one Eye, and not a pair, if it is indeed Sauron's actual eye?

Originally Posted by JeffF

thie is reiterated again in the chapter Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, "he had wrought for himself a new shape: and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed forever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great among Elves and Men could endure".

I believe that The Eye here is metaphorical, that it symbolises the will and intent of Sauron. Actually, representation perhaps is a more fitting word. It is actually clear that Sauron had a mannish physical shape during the War of the Ring. Gollum had apparently met him and noted that he only had four fingers on his black hand - Isildur cut one off remember. Just read an article here that also quotes a letter by JRRT, which confirms that the Dark Lord isn't a burning Eye, but quite literally a Dark Lord.

Originally Posted by JRRT

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

At any rate this eye-like imagery still comes from a window in the top of the tower and is very faint, not this dumb lighthouse-style searchlight thing that looks like nothing so much as a mussel prized from its shell and stuck between the outer tines of a fork...

To be fair, the quote says "as from some window" which is only to say that they imagined it came from one, but couldn't actually see it, and though the fiery beam is said to "flicker" this isn't the same as saying it's very faint, only that it's unsteady. I like your theory of the Ring-enhanced perception though, this could be an explanation to Frodo's vision.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

There is little doubt that the "eye" whether physical or not, had great signficance to Sauron, it is after all the symbol he chose for his emblem and what his Orcs (and presumably men) were marked with (as the WK's forces were marked with the White Moon and Saruman's Uruk-Hai used the White hand). Heck even the Flies in Mordor were marked with the red eye. That sound like something more than a mere "metaphorical construct to me"

It does to me too. I mean, from where does this symbol or representation originate? Sauron isn't a big Eye, but while few unlucky souls have seen Sauron in person, everyone in Mordor at least seems to be familiar with The Lidless Eye that never sleeps, ever watching over the lands. I actually don't discount the idea of an actual Eye on top of the Dark Tower.

Originally Posted by Boro

A metaphor for the presense, control, and watchful will of Sauron...nothing more. No time to explain that quote you give.

I'm eagerly awaiting your explanaition.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I dunno, don't you think it seems strange only to see one Eye, and not a pair, if it is indeed Sauron's actual eye?

I have in fact wondered the same thing, I just didn't mention it for fear of sounding foolish. The best answer I can come up with (both I admit rather shakey) are as follows (I am assuming for the moment that the Palatir was involved at Sauron's end with regards to the incident, i.e. that Sauron didn't interface with the mirror's "sight" directly 1. at the time Sauron was holding the Palantir up to his eye like a giant monocle (we know that the ideal scrying distance for a Palantir is about three feet away but maybe when your trying to send your will through the stone having it closer is adventageous. Ultimately only Saruman and Aragorn likely know, both having confronted Sauron face to face in the Palantir (I'm not sure about this, but I get the felling that While Sauron was able to know whne Denetroy was using the stone, and was able to twist what Denethor saw he never out and out showed up in the Anor stone in person to confront Denethor face to face.) and neither of them said.

Heck for all I know the eye is a physical or at least visual manefestation of Sauron's "third eye" (that is where psychic powers are supposed to be broadcast from, right?). If there is an eye on top of the tower I doubt it's flesh and blood or at least I doubt it's physically connected to Sauron's body (somehow the image of a dark lord with a long umbilicus running from his head up trough the celing and connecting to a giant flesh and blood eye on the roof doesn't sit well with me.).

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm, Jackson's representation of the Eye always made me think that someone had left on the Flaming Eye Beacon atop Castle Anthrax....

Jackson's interpretation aside, the Eye was a symbol, but not Sauron's physical form in the Third Age. In speaking of Aragorn's confrontation with Sauron via the palantir, in letter 246, Tolkien says:

...in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

So it would appear that Tolkien intended Sauron to have a physical man-like form in the Third Age. "The Eye" to me always equated with Sauron's attention, or his focused powers of mind. The stab of red fire mentioned in skip's original quote is to me no more of a surprise than the stab of white fire that came from Gandalf's upraised hand during the rescue of Faramir; the light is a manifestation of power being exerted, and Sauron was certainly exerting his power to see all he could of his enemies' actions during the battle before the gates. He was probably exerting considerable power to control his armies from afar as well. I could well imagine that his "very terrible" physical form might have hideous and piercing eyes, which his minions and slaves would remember quite well, and come to equate with him.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I'm eagerly awaiting your explanaition.

Such a patient person, it's usually a quality I lack. Anyway, to my explanation.

In the Third Age there is an 'Eye of Sauron' (sometimes just short-handed by Tolkien as 'the Eye') as there was an 'Eye of Morgoth.' In both cases (in my opinion I should also stress) it's a metaphor to both Dark Lords' dominant, over-powering wills.

Frodo see the Eye in Galadriel's Mirror as Galadriel goes to point out:

"You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."~Mirror of Galadriel

And in the Silm:

"He took up the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron and few even the great Elves and Men could endure"~Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Now with the quote from Mount Doom, I would call it a delusional vision of Frodo's:

One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain about his neck.

"but as from some great window...the flicker of a piercing Eye." >>>the start of the metaphor (or simile if you would prefer).

Frodo's vision is over, but Tolkien continues with "the Eye" to describe Sauron (something that he also used for Morgoth). He also uses another metaphor for Sauron as "that Power" something Saruman does too:

A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one choice before you, before us. We may join with that Power.~The Council of Elrond

Note with both "the Eye" and "that Power", the consistent capitalization of the words, which would denote that they are both referring to person, almost like a personal title. When Saruman says "that Power," Gandalf and everyone knows he's talking about Sauron. It's no different with the Mount Doom quote, where the Eye is a vision of Frodo's, and Tolkien then used the Eye and the Power as metaphors to refer to Sauron's will (or his "malice") which was now entirely bent towards the Captains of the West.

I got another Sauron metaphor for you

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wonder witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless, and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.~Field of Cormallen

Here Tolkien is describing Sauron's servants as ants with Sauron as their Queen, and when their queen was destroyed, they were crazed and mindless. Thos not held under the Eye...erm Iron Will of Sauron (like the Men of Rhun and Harad) they had a much different (and far more noble) reaction.

"It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom, for in their corruption they had almost lost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did the pressure on them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his "Eye" wherever they might be....this servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs to an almost ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Age under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth’s chief Lieutenant."~Home X: Morgoth’s Ring, Myths Transformed

I'm pretty sure there are several places in the Silm too where Morgoth is referred to as "the Eye," but right now time is short and I'm too lazy to flip through the pages. But I will end with...what was Sauron's symbol? A red Eye. Seeing as Sauron loved order, co-ordination (to the point of being a control freak) he seemed to also push the Eye as a metaphor for himself. So many metaphors, maybe Sauron aspired to be an English teacher, in his early good lil Maia days. Oh and what was Saruman's symbol? A white Hand...was there a white Hand on top of Orthanc?

[Alfirin]

That actually sums it up quite succintly. Saron's gaze and will is his All-seeing Eye, much as the force of his armies is described as his hands and fingers. Though I do still hold deep in my heart that the eye in the mirror if not Sauron's literal eye resembles it in apperance, he must have gotten the idea for the shape from somewhere.
Your comments of Saruman actually also works. Much as Saron desired ultimate order and personal control of the world (all under my All seeing gaze). Saruman, at least intially professes to wanting to rule the world becuse he thinks it needs his and the other wizard's guidance i.e. a "guiding hand" As for the WK symbol, well, his current residence did used to be called the Tower of the Moon, and the Moon has always been associated with Magic.

One final aside, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Would most of this forum agree that, inaproppriate and undesirable as Peter Jackson's depiction of Sauron is, its still light years better than the way he was shown in the Rankin Bass Cartoon, I mean what was that, a compass rose?, a sixteenth century chart of the sun and ther planets??

[skip spence]

Thanks for the replies. As you may have noticed in the op I am well aware that The Eye is primarily a metaphor and a symbol and certainly not the physical manifestation of Sauron himself. I even quoted the same letter as you did in my previous post, Ibrin. I think that from an outside perspective, The Lidless Eye is just that and nothing more, a metaphor Tolkien uses to symbolize the never sleeping watchfulness of Sauron (though one wonders how fitting the cat-eye likeness really is, seeing how cats spend the great majority of their lives sleeping).

It’s certainly a very powerful one too, with applications that go beyond Middle Earth. To me it symbolizes the need for control in a totalitarian society - come to think of it, totalitarianism isn’t at all necessary for one to imagine how The Eye is on you these days. As an aside, a friend of mine got busted for possession of marijuana a few years back and one of the consequences was being ordered to go see a doctor at his own expense to prove he was no addict. “You know that big Eye in the LotR movies?” the doctor asked my mate who nodded. “That Eye is on you now, it's watching you carefully and it isn’t going to lose focus for a looong time” The good doctor was referring to the state machinery.

Yet, from an inside perspective I’ve began to wonder if The Eye isn’t perhaps more than a symbol after all. This image is just so universal. Frodo sees The Eye before he (in all likelihood) learns that Sauron uses this symbol, and Galadriel immediately recognizes the vision, because she has it too, the very same it seems. Didn’t Bilbo see the Eye too, many years before the events in Lord of the Rings? The Orcs often refer to The Eye when speaking about Sauron and his intent, and I very much doubt that many if any of them actually have seen the Dark Lord in the flesh, seen his actual eyes. No, clearly this image isn’t accidental. It must have been chosen by Sauron himself, and I believe he uses it as a representation of himself and his power. The vision of The Eye is something that he projects, as a sort of visual manifestation of his intent to control and subjugate.

With this in mind, would it be so hard to believe that there actually is a red eye on top of Barad Dur? That opening quote seems to suggest that Frodo and Sam though so, though they didn’t see it directly, only sensed it. That would be pretty intimidating for the Orcses I think, seeing a glowing red beacon peering down at them, much like how Frodo and Sam saw the light in the tower at Cirith Ungol, yet with much added malice. I included the description of Minas Morgul because it actually describes something similar to PJ’s forkeye in the movies (and this is most likely a literal description) – a revolving top course of a tower shaped like a ghostly face, watching over the lands with ‘magic’ means, as there would be no need for revolving if there were actual people standing in the windows. Why can't Barad Dur have a similar feature? Hm. I also think there's something unsatisfactory with the image of Sauron leaning out of a plain window for hours on end, trying to decipher what’s going on outside the Morannon. It seems undignified somehow. I’d much rather picture him sitting on his dark throne in front of the Palantir, which he’s managed to hook up to his terrifying Eye device.

And Boro, I'm still waiting for your explanation of the quote in the op. Edit: Sorry, now I see that you did, though I'm not entirely convinced. Should think before I speak

Lastly, while there was no white hand on top of Orthanc, there certainly was a large one outside of Isengard.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Yet, from an inside perspective I’ve began to wonder if The Eye isn’t perhaps more than a symbol after all. This image is just so universal. Frodo sees The Eye before him long before he (in all likelihood) learns that Sauron uses this symbol, and Galadriel immediately recognizes the vision, because she has it too, the very same it seems. Didn’t Bilbo see the Eye too, long before the events in Lord of the Rings? The Orcs often refer to The Eye when speaking about Sauron and his intent, and I very much doubt that many if any of them actually have seen the Dark Lord in the flesh, seen his actual eyes. No, clearly this image isn’t accidental. It must have been chosen by Sauron himself, and I believe he uses it as a representation of himself and his power.

I think Bilbo said he felt as if the Ring was an 'eye' on him, but didn't descibe it more plainly.
When Pippin looked in the Palantír of Orthanc, he saw Sauron in person, but unhelpfully gave no specifics as to Sauron's facial appearance.

As an aside, weren't dragon's eyes said to be catlike? Would that have some influence with Sauron choosing that as his military symbol, and his own personal representation of himself?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And Boro, I'm still waiting for your explanation of the quote in the op. Edit: Sorry, now I see that you did, though I'm not entirely convinced. Should think before I speak

I was about to respond to this with a "look above," but didn't see the Edit note, so we would have both been guilty.

Anyway, for a more detailed explanation of why this wasn't a "real" vision of Frodos, per se, but why I think it's a delusional (almost day-dreaming) vision caused by the Ring...

Note after the vision, Frodo collapses and tells Sam he can't stop himself from trying to grab for the Ring. When looking at it as a reader, this is one of the most terrifying things we witness to Frodo. He is literally losing complete control over himself, and he is losing control of his own body. "Help, me, Sam! Hold my hand! I can't stop it!" Morsul's humorous Star Wars reference is not so far off taking Frodo's episode after the vision into account.

Plus Frodo wasn't looking at the top of Barad-dur at all, it was through some great unknown window, that is where Frodo gets the red flicker of a piercing Eye.

Capitalization of "the Eye" being perhaps the most important thing, because capitalizing denotes a specific person or place. Like Saruman referring to Sauron as "that Power." If Saruman was talking about the random idea of accumulating power, it would not be capitalized. Since it is, Saruman is talking about joining Sauron, Sauron being "that Power." Or it is like when Gandalf in The Shire uses "Ring-maker." Yet again the capitalization means Gandalf is referring to a specific person, and yet again this "Ring-maker" is Sauron.

The capitalized Eye, therefor is referring to not a spot-light on-top of a tower, but Sauron himself. Specifically Sauron's will that held his Orcs in thraldom as the Home X quote shows when Morgoths will is then referred to as his "Eye." (Think of the symbol for Big Brother in George Orwell's 1984...what was it? )

Whatever the case it is definitely a symbol that Sauron pushed, one to represent himself. There would be no need though for an eye spot-light, because the orcs have the symbol on their helmets, which serves as a pleasant reminder to them of what Grishnakh tells Ugluk: "Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool: but the Great Eye is on him." (The Uruk-hai) Grishnakh isn't saying Sauron's got his spot-light pointed to Isengard, because Sauron had more important things to focus on than Saruman, but it was a message from one Dark Lord's servant to the wannabe Dark Lord's servant...Saruman isn't trusted and he's being watched.