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Old 09-14-2009, 07:22 AM   #1
Galin
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On the door to Moria, Moria is referred to as Moria, even though it was never given that name until Durin's Bane was awakened. Huh?
It didn't necessarily say Moria on the actual door however.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:45 AM   #2
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It didn't necessarily say Moria on the actual door however.
I've wondered about that. Gandalf's use of 'Moria' could have just been an instance of his using the name most recognized by people at that point in time. Not being exceptionally keen where Elvish writing is concerned, I wonder if 'Moria' was the name shown in the illustration of the Doors as written by Celebrimbor.
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Old 09-14-2009, 07:47 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
It didn't necessarily say Moria on the actual door however.
It does on Tolkien's drawing of the door in LotR: Ennyn Durin Aran Moria. Following the translator conceit, this would be a copy of a drawing in the original Red Book, done by somebody who had seen the door (Frodo or Sam, presumably). That's as close to the actual door as it gets.
It probably should have been Ennyn Durin Aran Hadhodrond, with the Sindarin translation of Khazad-dűm which the Elves used before it was renamed Moria (see Silmarillion index); but apparently Tolkien hadn't invented that name at the time of writing LotR.
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Old 09-14-2009, 08:20 AM   #4
Galin
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Originally Posted by Inziladun
I've wondered about that. Gandalf's use of 'Moria' could have just been an instance of his using the name most recognized by people at that point in time.
I agree. The picture in the books is a 'close enough' visual representation of the doors, not the actual doors of course.

The writing in the picture also need not reflect what is on the actual doors, since there are two exterior Dwarvish names in the writing, which must be due to the modern translator (Durin, Narvi).
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:36 AM   #5
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Galin, you're right about the writing, of course. I'd completely neglected that Durin and Narvi (from the Völuspa) were not their 'actual' Mannish names - so we don't have a copy of the Red Book drawing, but a 'translation drawing', so to speak (as with Balin's epitaph).
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Old 09-14-2009, 09:58 AM   #6
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We might suggest something similar with respect to some of the runes in The Hobbit too -- considered to 'really' represent internal runes. This is noted in Tolkien's Legendarium (in an essay about runes by Arden Smith), as one possible explanation:

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'This is supported by Tolkien's statement in the foreword to the 1966 third edition of The Hobbit: '[The Dwarves] runes are in this book represented by English runes'
As for Gimli's remark -- Tolkien didn't forget about Parth Galen, Gimli did
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