Elves and Gondor

[mark12_30]

This is fascinating. Melian enchanted Thingol (stood together with him, tis true) for years while the Teleri wandered in search of him; she protected Thingol's realm with her "girdle" of enchantment; Beren was, if I recall correctly, *allowed* through because Melian realized he had a great doom on him, otherwise he would have been bewidlered on the borders?

How creepy, to wander the borders of Lorien and meet enchanted mortals gazing into the treetops, hair and beard grown long and wild... Brrr.

A very fey interpretation, and good thinking.

--mark12_30

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

How creepy, to wander the borders of Lorien and meet enchanted mortals gazing into the treetops, hair and beard grown long and wild... Brrr.

At least some, however, apparently escaped that fate, according to men of different countries. Boromir:

'And now we must enter the Golden Wood, you say. But of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor, and it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed.'

FOTR Lothlórien

And Éomer:

'Then there is a Lady in the Golden Wood, as old tales tell!' he said. 'Few escape her nets, they say.'

TTT The Riders of Rohan

From that it certainly appears that some men did enter the Wood from time to time, else the stories those two had heard and the wording they used to describe them would not be so similar.
My question now is if an enchanted dream-state awaited the uninvited and the overly curious man, why were some apparently able to return to their fellows and tell them of the experience?
Again, I can't see sovereign rulers of either Gondor or Rohan sending anyone to Lórien on any sort of official business. So why would escapees be allowed?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

As they were leaving Lorien Celeborn spoke to the Company - and it was obvious he was well informed about events in Middle-Earth. For example, he knew about the bridges at Osgiliath being down and the eastern bank of Anduin being held by the Enemy. He must have got his info somehow.

And as the Company was approaching Rauros Aragorn did state that boats in recent times had travelled down Anduin from Wilderland to Osgiliath - Boromir confirmed this, although he said it had happened "seldom". Might these boats have carried Elves from Lorien and also possibly from the Woodland Realm in Mirkwood ? Anborn knew about black squirrels in Mirkwood.

Another possibility I suppose would be Gondorian ships sometimes going to the Gulf of Lune, and/or Cirdan's mariners visiting Pelargir.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

As they were leaving Lorien Celeborn spoke to the Company - and it was obvious he was well informed about events in Middle-Earth. For example, he knew about the bridges at Osgiliath being down and the eastern bank of Anduin being held by the Enemy. He must have got his info somehow..

Celeborn probably knew about that long before the Company arrived at Lórien. Boromir had told the Council of Elrond about it, having witnessed it himself.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

And as the Company was approaching Rauros Aragorn did state that boats in recent times had travelled down Anduin from Wilderland to Osgiliath - Boromir confirmed this, although he said it had happened "seldom". Might these boats have carried Elves from Lorien and also possibly from the Woodland Realm in Mirkwood ? Anborn knew about black squirrels in Mirkwood..

Aragorn could have travelled the River by boat on many occasions during his journeys. The same goes for Boromir, though I'm not sure what reason he might have had for being in a boat approaching Rauros from the north prior to the Company of the Ring.
That was also the probable means of Lórien elves to rendezvous with any men of Gondor they would speak with, but I know of no evidence Thranduil's elves from Mirkwood ever did the same. Anborn's words about the black squirrels were probably just from folklore he had heard.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Another possibility I suppose would be Gondorian ships sometimes going to the Gulf of Lune, and/or Cirdan's mariners visiting Pelargir.

I wouldn't think either would have been likely, at least not for many years prior to the War of the Ring.
The last instance of ships from Gondor going to Mithlond that I know of was in the year 1975 of the Third Age, when Eärnur brought the army that defeated the Witch-king. I think Gondor became entirely engrossed in their own affairs after that, and would have seen no profit in such a journey.
Círdan, too, would have had no call that I know of that would bring his ships to Pelargir. He and his people were pretty well confined to Mithlond and Lindon by that point. I get the impression Galdor's trip to Rivendell was a rare event.

[Rumil]

Nice points by Mouth and Inzil !

OK so,

some sort of contact is going on between men of Gondor and the elves. I'd think that this was much in the same sort of way that Bilbo kept in contact with the elves. Private meetings by night out in the countryside.

I have a feeling that the elves do sometimes like to wander the hills and woods, and are sometimes, like Haldir, sent to gain information. However they don't appear to make themselves publicly known in Gondor and Rohan, so avoid towns and cities, and of course can travel inconspicuously in their grey cloaks!

I think that there must have been some few Gondorians and perhaps Rohanites , who were contacts for the elves, just like Bilbo in the Shire. Maybe they were named 'elf-friend' too? These contacts would perhaps exchange news with the elves and be trusted to keep their meetings private, if not secret, for Bilbo was well-known to 'talk with the elves'.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I would side with Rumil here. And as for the points above, I would agree with Inziladun that we have to approach all the thoughts carefully and not with too daring fantasies. The Wood-Elves of Mirkwood were a "barbaric" and remote people, being friendly only with the folk of Lake-Town and being divided even from their cousins in Lórien by dangerous country. The less would they need to meddle into any Gondorian affairs. I would believe that Anborn's remark about black squirrels was indeed just an old folk story, something like a wise remark passed down among the hunter masters and their apprentices as a curiosity about the outside world: "Good shot, son! Now you see, it's not that hard to shoot a squirrel from this distance. Next time, we can try with mice. Ha, only you remember, if you ever came to Mirkwood, son, they have black squirrels there, and it's dark there, so you won't actually see them! Ho Ho Ho! Okay, we're done for today, take your bow and let us go home."

Originally Posted by Inziladun

From that it certainly appears that some men did enter the Wood from time to time, else the stories those two had heard and the wording they used to describe them would not be so similar.
My question now is if an enchanted dream-state awaited the uninvited and the overly curious man, why were some apparently able to return to their fellows and tell them of the experience?
Again, I can't see sovereign rulers of either Gondor or Rohan sending anyone to Lórien on any sort of official business. So why would escapees be allowed?

As for this, Boromir's and Éomer's knowledge might have been as well derived from the same source. Having a real basis, for sure, but what makes you believe that actually people would enter the Wood and return? They would not pass into any more "important" places and return, for certain. I think if anybody returned, it would be just so that he was the reluctant one from the company, and just saw his companions disappear in the forest and they did not return, and when he was looking for them, he didn't find them, perhaps only something they dropped or left in the wood (like for example some guy's most prized cloak, which he just left lying in the woods, because it hindered him when chasing some phantasm, but finding the cloak was enough for the one who came looking after him to convince him that his friend was lost, for it was well known he would never drop the cloak on his own will). Or you can imagine it, once again, akin to Bilbo's experience. A group of adventurous Rohanians camps by the woods, suddenly they see eerie lights flickering behind the trees, two of them say "ooh, look, let's go there and see!" and the third one, less brave, wants to remain there, but his friends go and are never heard of again. The third guy returns to Rohan with a tale about another claim by the Elven Lady of the Golden Wood.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

The River Limlight, the northern border of Rohan, was only about 100 miles from Lorien.

There surely must have been SOME occasional contact between Elves from Lorien and men from the Wold.

In addition, men (Beornings and others) still lived on the banks of the Anduin north of Lorien, down to maybe the Gladden Fields. Here again, they might have had some contact with Lorien and would most certainly have had contact with Elves from Mirkwood. I say that because there was certainly interaction between the Mirkwood Elves, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Men of Esgaroth. In turn, these people (particularly Dwarves) travelled into Eriador via the High Pass that was guarded by the Beornings.

All these comings and goings must have led to some residual contacts at least with Gondor, not least by way of the Anduin and via Rohan.

[The Might]

I don't know what to say about the Wold... it was only sparsely populated by people like Wídfara with herds of horses. I doubt that such people had very much interest in exploring anything across the Limlight.

I could definitely see the Beornings and the Woodmen having contact to Elves, but I am not quite sure how this would connect the Elves to Gondor. I mean, I doubt many Gondorians went north to visit the Woodmen and then happened to see some of Thranduil's folk hunting or something similar...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

The River Limlight, the northern border of Rohan, was only about 100 miles from Lorien.

There surely must have been SOME occasional contact between Elves from Lorien and men from the Wold.

I believe not (beyond the random night sightings of a few Haldirs, or a few crazed Rohirrim wandering too far, both as mentioned above). The Galadhrim were very, very isolative people (see also UT, of Celeborn and Galadriel for some details about the folk) and they would not stick their nose out of the woods except for some scouting parties, who would however remain hidden and walking out of the sight of humans. There was also certainly not as much need for them to visit Rohan, they would stop there a few times but their main concern would be checking the other directions from their home as possible lands of threat from the Orcs, Wargs and everything.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

In addition, men (Beornings and others) still lived on the banks of the Anduin north of Lorien, down to maybe the Gladden Fields. Here again, they might have had some contact with Lorien and would most certainly have had contact with Elves from Mirkwood. I say that because there was certainly interaction between the Mirkwood Elves, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Men of Esgaroth. In turn, these people (particularly Dwarves) travelled into Eriador via the High Pass that was guarded by the Beornings.

All these comings and goings must have led to some residual contacts at least with Gondor, not least by way of the Anduin and via Rohan.

What you are saying about the contact among the groups in the North is true, but I see no reason for contact between the peoples living north of Gladden Fields and the peoples living south of Lórien. Why? Let me say just two words: Dol Guldur. Also, the places around Tol Brandir have not been safe in the latter Third Age. As Boromir (or was it Aragorn?) mentioned, the Orcs were becoming more daring and could have been often waiting at the left bank of Anduin itself (as it happened to Fellowship). And before that, earlier in the TA, before the fall of the Dragon, the Wilderness was far more wild and the realm of the Beornings did not seem to reach as far or be as strong (that happened only after the renewal of Erebor, which brought the need of new trade routes and the Beornings profited from guarding the routes). Also, the reach of Dol Guldur was considerably longer in the earlier times.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Consider what Beregond said to Pippin at Minas Tirith, before the siege : "Things move in the East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported ; and north in Mirkwood and beyond ; and south in Harad".

How did Beregond get this information ? Certainly not via Denethor's use of the Palantir, which was secret. There must therefore have been some travelling to and from Gondor and these other parts of Middle Earth.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Consider what Beregond said to Pippin at Minas Tirith, before the siege : "Things move in the East beyond the Inland Sea, it is reported ; and north in Mirkwood and beyond ; and south in Harad".

How did Beregond get this information ? Certainly not via Denethor's use of the Palantir, which was secret. There must therefore have been some travelling to and from Gondor and these other parts of Middle Earth.

Though the ultimate source of Denethor's knowledge was indeed secret, I think he did have counsellors with whom he met to discuss intelligence and strategic matters. I can see rumours emanating from those meetings filtering down to the citizenry.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, now that's a significant quote. However, I do not believe that this would be a proof of some contact of Gondor with Beornings or Thranduil's folk. Rumors pass, even the Hobbits in the Shire knew about Mordor being inhabited again - and how far it is from Mordor to the Shire? The Gondorians, diminished however their realm may have been, still probably kept a close eye on what's going on in the East, and also upon Mirkwood. It was almost their border! The Rohirrim would know that forces are stirring in Mirkwood again. The Gondorians had numerous experiences with that from earlier days, when their realm reached far beyond Anduin. But the Elves of Mirkwood are far too remote for the Gondorians to reach. And anyway, rumors pass. The kingdom of Erebor was certainly significant enough* so that the Gondorians would know that the Easterlings are threatening it, but they probably had hardly any contact with it at all, not any diplomatic contacts. Isn't it in a way interesting to see late Third-Age Kingdom of Dale in the eyes of Gondor as a faraway rich and relatively powerful country?
Also what you said about Palantír doesn't necessarily mean that Denethor would not share his knowledge. He would not say from where it came, but he could tell his generals about this (and we know he did share some facts, as people were wondering how wise he is and how surprisingly much he knows). So he could also see the war in the far northeast and so it reached Beregond's ears.

*A side note (off-topic, but it occured to me now) - actually, curious, isn't it, just from the economic point of view: it would make sense for the Gondorians to actually maintain contact with Erebor, and the Northernmen in Dale and Lake-Town (as in old times anyway). It would be nice to have a route around the eastern borders of Mirkwood. But alas, such journey was probably impossible by the end of the Third Age, as the threat would be far too big. Easterlings and Dol Guldur - not a nice view. The only ones who would come to Erebor from south would be the messengers of Sauron... just as they did.

But it makes a lot more sense, in the light of this, that there were basically only two major trade routes in M-E, that is the west-east one from let's say Lindon to Erebor and the other NW-SE from Lindon as far as Gondor. And now it is clear to me at last why they form this sort of "incomplete triangle": as the third part of the triangle, i.e. Gondor-Erebor, just wouldn't work now.

(x-ed with Inzil, and I see he brings the same point)