Eowyn and feminism and Tolkien

[Aiwendil]

Davem -

You make a fair point about the possibility that other 'shield-maidens' existed in Rohan, despite the fact that we don't have any concrete evidence that they did.

To be clear, I didn't mean to suggest that the Rohirrim were terribly misogynistic, and indeed as you say there are places in the world today where women have it much, much worse. I do think the culture is androcentric, but this isn't anything unique to Rohan. Indeed, I would argue that women have been subjugated to one degree or another in pretty much every human culture that has ever existed.

More to the point, however, I think that the existence or non-existence of other female warriors in Rohan is actually somewhat immaterial. The fact is that Eowyn is constrained by her society to a role that she finds hateful; she is denied the glory of battle that is so highly prized and compelled to entrust her fate to others. Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Regardless of whether this is the condition of women in general in Rohan, or whether it is peculiar to Eowyn, or whether it's something in between, it is unjust, and her words against it have force.

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by davem

They may be just - but equally they may not be what she really means. In other words, she may (& this is my take on it) be using them to cover up her real motives. I don't think she does want the 'glory of battle', I think she wants out, & has latched onto the idea of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori as a way to avoid the 'cowardly' option of suicide. Glory in battle for her is the means to an end, not the end itself. She wants to join the glorious dead. I don't honestly believe that she wanted to fight a glorious battle & come out the other end still breathing.

To interject for a moment, I think there's a quote that supports davem's position. When Merry first saw Éowyn in her Dernhelm guise:

(Merry) caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.

ROTK The Muster of Rohan

[Pitchwife]

Just a few quotes to support davem's argument -
Merry's first impression of Dernhelm (LotR Book V, The Muster of Rohan):

He caught the glint of clear grey eyes; and then he shivered, for it came suddenly to him that it was the face of one without hope who goes in search of death.

Referred back to in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields:

For into Merry's mind flashed the memory of the face that he saw at the riding from Dunharrow; the face of one that goes seeking death, having no hope.

And Aragorn in The Houses of Healing:

'I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley. But to what she will awake: hope, or forgetfulness, or despair, I do not know. And if to despair, then she will die, unless other healing comes which I cannot bring. Alas! for her deeds have set her among the queens of great renown.'

EDIT: x-ed with Inzil

[Aiwendil]

I don't deny for an instant that Eowyn had a kind of 'soul sickness', that she was hopeless and sought death. Nor that it is good that she recovers from it - as it would be whether the sufferer were a man or a woman.

I just can't help but to feel that there is a rightness in her words to Aragorn. The constraints she feels are real (if they were not, there would be no need for her disguise), and regardless of her motive, she is right to question them. Moreover, as I see it, her 'sickness', her hopelessness, is in part caused by those very constraints. Is it so difficult to sympathize with her when she says:

Shall I always be left behind when the Riders depart, to mind the house while they win renown, and find food and beds when they return?

or:

All your words are but to say: you are a woman, and your part is in the house. But when the men have died in battle and honour, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more.

I for one can't help but to be moved by these words, and even though she is grim and soul-sick and in need of healing, I cannot brush them aside as symptoms of an ill mind.

[davem]

Er, well, right...quite surprised no-one picked up on my deliberate mistake a few posts back..

And if we assume that Aragorn didn't just make up the term 'shield maiden' on the spot then we can also assume that it was not entirely uncommon for women to fight

Obviously, it wasn't Aragorn who used the term shieldmaiden at all, but Eowyn herself:

'Too often have I heard of duty,' she cried. 'But am I not of he House of Eorl, a shieldmaiden and not a dry-nurse? I have waited on faltering feet long enough. Since they falter no longer, it seems, may I not now spend my life as I will?'

so, er, just pay attention in future guys, ok...

Anyway, now that's cleared up, let's agree to never mention it again....

'kay...as I said, I don't dispute that Eowyn is speaking the truth about the state of of women in Rohan (or that's how a modern reader would interpret it - I don't know whether that's how Tolkien intended it to be understood, but we'll let that pass. What does interest me is Eowyn's plaintive 'may I not now spend my life as I will?', because 'spend' in this context has a double meaning - she may well be asking 'May I not live my life as I will?, but I don't think she is - I think she is asking 'May I not expend my life as I will?

Now, I think she believes what she's saying - that she wants to be like the boys & go to battle & win renown. But its not so simple. Her death wish is obvious to anyone looking at her (Merry for instance) but it may not be plain to her. She probably does fantasise about winning glory on the field, but she sees that 'glory' coming as a result of falling in combat. I honestly don't think she could conceive of not dying on the field. She wanted to die for the cause, yes, but the cause, however genuine, (& however complex - because I agree that the 'enemy' in her mind was not simply Sauron, it was also the restrictive male dominated society she lived in, & she sought liberation from both - & also from her own despair) was her justification for 'spending' her life.

And I have to rush off now - but I did want to bring up Eomer's words to Aragorn:

(Aragorn)When I first looked on her and perceived her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. Or was it, maybe, a frost that had turned its sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die? Her malady begins far back before this day, does it not, Eomer?'

(Eomer)'I marvel that you should ask me, lord,' he answered. 'For I hold you blameless in this matter, as in all else; yet I knew not that Eowyn, my sister, was touched by any frost, until she first looked on you.

Implying that Aragorn had awakened some kind of hope of a larger life for her - & then dashed it, & that that had pushed her over the edge. I'm not so sure - I don't think Aragorn did anything that wouldn't have happened anyway. What his appearance & rejection did, to my mind, was tip her over the edge - but it was an edge that she had been getting closer & closer to, & would had happened anyway.