What was Frodo's temptation

[narfforc]

What promise did it give Isildur?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What promise did it give Isildur?

It seems he was just 'generically' tempted by its beauty at first, then had the idea he would keep it as an heirloom of his House. What could it promise him? He was already a king and had just (apparently) defeated Sauron forever.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What promise did it give Isildur?

What about: the power to rebuild the glory of Númenor, unsullied by its Fall, in Middle-earth?

In Fordim's examples for the desires fed by the Ring, the common motive seems to me

• fulfillment of the deepest desire the respective person had independent of the Ring, plus
• a tendency to self-aggrandizement, the wish to be more important, to play a bigger part or to play their part more effectively / on a larger scale, to fulfil their desire all by themselves, to reshape reality to their liking.

The first desire may be completely selfless and for some greater good (indeed is so in all the cases cited except Gollum's, who had been under the Ring's influence for centuries); it's only with the second aspect that selfishness creeps in and begins to overwhelm whatever good there was in the first desire.
Where does this take us regarding Frodo? I once sketched an experimental scenario in this post (last paragraph, skip all the philosophical ramble), but that was more playful than serious, I think we have to dig deeper.

Anyway, Fordim, thanks for starting this thread! It was high time.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I tend to think that the notion of the Ring offering Frodo the safety of the Shire is accurate, since that was what he believed he was doing by continuing the quest. But the farther along it got, and the longer Frodo resisted any temptation of power it might offer, I think It started working on that desire through delusion. Especially once he was within the borders of Mordor, I believe the Ring started to work on him through despair, so that he might start to believe that though it appeared the only way to save the Shire would be through the destruction of the Ring, he would, in despair, "realize" that the only way to save the Shire was by claiming the Ring. Something made Frodo snap at the very end, and as he had never been a person who desired power over others, he either succumbed to the insanity of believing he could be that kind of person, or to the insanity of thinking that only with the Ring could the Shire be saved. Possibly a combination of both. Tolkien always did say that Frodo failed the quest (even though he achieved a kind of moral victory by giving all he had to give in attempting to fulfill it). Succumbing to despair in such a way would, I think, be a significant failure.

Did that make any sense? I have my doubts....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Did that make any sense? I have my doubts....

Certainly it did. That's basically what I meant, with more detail and eloquence.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Something made Frodo snap at the very end, and as he had never been a person who desired power over others, he either succumbed to the insanity of believing he could be that kind of person, or to the insanity of thinking that only with the Ring could the Shire be saved. Possibly a combination of both. Tolkien always did say that Frodo failed the quest (even though he achieved a kind of moral victory by giving all he had to give in attempting to fulfill it). Succumbing to despair in such a way would, I think, be a significant failure.

Aye, and there's the rub. Your take on this is a good one, but one founded only (and necessarily) on supposition and (educated/reasonable) guesswork. It fascinates me that Tolkien left this matter so open and 'undecided'. Even the statement of Frodo's "failure" which you cite is taken from the Letters...nowhere in the book does anyone seem to think of Frodo as failing (even Frodo himself seems to feel that he succeeded...at least he never says, "Oops, I blew it. Put on the Ring. My bad").

So while we can (and have) come up with a number of good theories as to what was going on, that is all they will ever be. It seems to me an important aspect of the book that one of the most central moments (if not THE central moment), when Frodo finally succumbs (as distinct from failure) to the Ring and puts it on. Why does he do this? What is he thinking? We aren't told.

And to address Inziladun's point about Sam's selflessness, I think that while sure he took the Ring for the sake of the quest, when it tried to fool him it did so by playing to his selfish desire to be The Greatest Gardener in Middle Earth (a rival to Galadriel even?). So it's not that Sam is selfish, only that the Ring was playing to that within him which is selfish...which in this case was not stronger than the selfless...

Which brings me back to Frodo...who seemed so entirely selfless throughout that even the Ring couldn't find anything to 'use' against him(?) Making him the only TRULY selfless person in the tale??

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I think Ibrin may have a good point with the aspect of despair. Despair is one of the great sins in Middle-earth, and hope one of the great virtues. We know that Sauron worked on Denethor by leading him to despair, since he apparently could not corrupt him to join him (which would make Denethor more virtuous than Saruman, who was corrupted to join!). This despair was his great failure. To carry on as if one had hope in a hopeless situation is what Gandalf did - was it him or Aragorn who said that they would then carry on without hope?

Giving up before the end (for not even the wise can see all ends) is one of the greatest mistakes that characters make in Tolkien's works. Was the claiming of the Ring giving up/giving in for Frodo?

Very interesting topic, Fordim, and great to have you active again!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Which brings me back to Frodo...who seemed so entirely selfless throughout that even the Ring couldn't find anything to 'use' against him(?) Making him the only TRULY selfless person in the tale??

Frodo was indeed a good hobbit and a selfless person by nature. At the beginning I have no doubt that saving the Shire (and the rest of ME) was his greatest desire. But during the long journey the Ring and Sauron's superior will in it were rubbing on him, slowly poisoning is mind, making him forget the Shire and his priorities:

No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark. Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.

By the end of the Quest Frodo becomes quite un-hobbity in mind, sort of wannabe Dark Lord-ish. We have glimpses of the process. Look how Frodo intimidated Gollum:

For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. [...]
Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.’

No really, is it a hobbit speaking?

Look also what happened in the Morgul Vale:

He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king – not yet.

Intresting this "not yet". I take it he was diluding himself with the idea to claim the Ring in order to be able to face off the Nazgul... The idea was already there and it would only grow.

And finally in the Cracks of Doom

Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use, and it rose above the throb and turmoil of Mount Doom, ringing in the roof and walls.
‘I have come,’ he said. ‘But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!’ And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam’s sight.

I don't think Frodo was thinking of saving the Shire at the moment. Not anymore. In his deluded mind, poisoned by the Ring, he contemplated becoming the Ringlord, ruling ME, ordering about the nazgul. He was not Frodo anymore, he was a strange mixture of Frodo and Sauron from the Ring, with the latter clearly prevailing. The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him. That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Ring acted not so much on Frodo's own desires, but on Sauron's desires implanted in him.

If that was the case, why would Gollum, who bore the Ring much longer than Frodo and was more enamoured of evil from the start, not have been similarly affected while he possessed it?

(The Ring) could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again.

FOTR The Shadow of the Past

Originally Posted by Gordis

That's why he felt so empty and broken with the Ring destroyed and could never enjoy the Shire again.

I don't think that was the primary reason the Shire was no longer what it had been to him.

Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?

ROTK Homeward Bound

I had always considered that statement to Gandalf, coupled with Frodo's guilt about his ultimate failure in not casting away the Ring of his own accord, to be the explanantion of his inability to enjoy the Shire afterward. Certainly the loss of the Ring left a lasting impression upon him, but it is only on the anniversary of its destruction that we see him openly mourning it.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If that was the case, why would Gollum, who bore the Ring much longer than Frodo and was more enamoured of evil from the start, not have been similarly affected while he possessed it?

A few reasons:
1.Gollum while sitting in his cave had no idea what Ring he had and what Powers it contained. Once he knew, he did get the ideas of Lord Gollum ruler of all.
2. The ring was still almost "dormant", much less powerful than in Mordor with Sauron in full power

And indeed you must be right, Inziladun, the smallness, meanness of Gollum's mind had to be a factor. It seems the ring couldn't simply implant Sauron's ideas/personality in any mind, it had to have something to work on, some response. Gollum was content with his cave, his fish and his Precious. Maybe, unlike Gollum, Frodo had a broad outlook on things, cared about the World, not only about himself. Sauron also "cared" about ME, in his own twisted way. Note how the ring couldn't affect Tom, who cared only about his little land and was not interested in the rest. He didn't wish to better Middle Earth, while Frodo and Sauron did.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I had always considered that statement to Gandalf, coupled with Frodo's guilt about his ultimate failure in not casting away the Ring of his own accord, to be the explanation of his inability to enjoy the Shire afterward. Certainly the loss of the Ring left a lasting impression upon him, but it is only on the anniversary of its destruction that we see him openly mourning it.

Frodo gives the reason himself and you have cited it: "Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same" He has drastically changed himself, that's why. He is not at all the same hobbit who left the Shire a year ago, not even close. And I think the loss of the Ring is his biggest pain throughout, though he tries not to speak of it. It is like a part of his soul is ripped out.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by narfforc

What promise did it give Isildur?

It's weregild. Isildur took it as payment for the loss of his father, brother, and Numenor.

So any promises along the lines of restoring those losses would have been very well-taken, though you'd have to be pretty deluded to think you could raise the dead, Ring or no.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I can't really see that Frodo, or any Hobbit (including Gollum) had, or ever had, a desire to dominate and order the lives of others.

You forget Lotho, a.k.a. "The Chief". I mean, it didn't work out any too well for him, but he did have a shot at playing petty dictator.

However, I don't think there's any indication that Frodo had a lifelong desire for power (let alone a desire to become the next Dark Lord)– if he had, I'd imagine the Ring would have acted on him a lot quicker.

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

Finally, this is not a false dilemma. He could have been going through anything and more. But whatever it was that finally cracked Frodo, it must have been a pretty small temptation in its natural state if he resisted it this long.

Apologies for the rambles, but if anyone does want to get to the bottom of this (and I for one think that the "Dark Lord" interpretation, while dramatic, is too simple) I think we need to redefine some of the assumptions that go into the question.

I'd say Frodo does get Dark Lord-ish at the end– but that's what would happen to anyone sooner or later (with the exception of Gollum, for the reasons already stated by Gordis). Perhaps you could say the Ring is "opportunistic"– it will act faster on a person with strong ambitions or outstanding character flaws, but in the end no-one can hold out.

EDIT:X'd with Boro.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

You forget Lotho, a.k.a. "The Chief". I mean, it didn't work out any too well for him, but he did have a shot at playing petty dictator.

However, I don't think there's any indication that Frodo had a lifelong desire for power (let alone a desire to become the next Dark Lord)– if he had, I'd imagine the Ring would have acted on him a lot quicker.

You're right, of course, and I should have been clearer about the lifelong distinction. Petty authority in a Shire overrun by Saruman's minions is hardly the same thing as world domination.

I still believe that the desire to save the Shire was the weak point of Frodo, the chink in the armour that allowed the Ring to work its evil. I see no inclination in him at any point in the story that he wished to be a tyrant. Frodo desiring power beyond his measure to accomplish this would not neccessarily mean he wanted to be a Sauron.