Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[Inziladun]

As an aside, I did not review this long thread, so apologies in advance if I repeat anything unnecessarily.

Originally Posted by alatar

Or, maybe Eru has gone what we would call insane, and so has set the world on auto pilot and has mentally retreated into the being that is Tom. Running the universe surely has its down days, and maybe Eru got so bored that It decided to go native, as that would be more fun, especially if It could somehow fool itself into playing at being a being like Tom. I would not limit the abilities of a god to not be able to pull off such a deception.

If Tom is Eru's little joke, he's been at it quite a long time by the standards of his Children.

But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older then the old. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

For Elrond to call a creature old means they are old. 'Oldest and fatherless' I've always taken to mean simply that the Elves had no idea who he was or where he came from: he was just there.
During the time Tom was hanging out in ME, Eru was getting things done; destroying Númenórë and approving the plan hatched by the Valar to send Maia to Middle-earth to lead the fight against Sauron, among others.
That said, if Tom is Eru, I don't know that I'd be inclined to think him insane or 'native', uncaring of the playing out of the Music. Not, as you say, that it would be beyond the abilties of an omnipotent Creator to accomplish the running of the affairs of the world from his 'summer home' in the Old Forest.

Now, one thing that's always intrigued me is Gandalf's views and words regarding Tom. At the Council, he says basically that Tom is the one being who could trusted to keep the Ring without succumbing to its power, so immune that he would be likely to throw it away. The proof of that the reader had already seen: Tom held the Ring, put it on, and immediately handed it back to Frodo with no hesitation. Gandalf clearly knows the same cannot be said for himself, Maia though he is. Over the years that's caused me to let go of the 'Tom must be a Maia' stance I used to have. Tom's power and will must be much greater than Sauron's.
Later, when Gandalf's work against Sauron is finished, he tells the hobbits:

I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

ROTK Homeward Bound

Gandalf is going to see Tom, and tell things he has told no one else? 'In all my time': does that mean 'since I have been here working agaist Sauron', or since I have been alive and conscious of my own being'? Why does Gandalf feel the need to do this? Could he be giving an account of his doings, failures as well as successes; a 'confession' if you will? And what does he expect Tom to say to him?

All that leads me to the conclusion that Gandalf appears to be reporting to his 'boss', and said 'boss' would have to be Manwë or Eru.
In the essay The Istari in Unfinished Tales, CJRT takes issue with the idea that Gandalf was Manwë, saying:

Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë.

And surely, Manwë could 'debrief' Gandalf upon his return to the West, as he probably did.
Conclusion? It seems entirely possible to me that Tom could have been a manifestation of Eru.

Originally Posted by alatar

And so why not have Eru as a similar triune god? It could then express itself as male in Tom, female in Goldberry, and even nature in Lumpkin. How better to see how the theme played out than to plant oneself in the middle of Middle Earth, and then be able to relate to the characters within, whether sentient being, animal/plant, or element?

The idea of Eru splitting into male and female sections that seem deeply in love in with one another I find more than a little distubing.
One the other hand, why not? If Tom is Eru, Goldberry must be accounted for as well, and that's as good an explanation as any.

[alatar]

Thanks for the reply and for the citations!

Originally Posted by Inziladun

As an aside, I did not review this long thread, so apologies in advance if I repeat anything unnecessarily.

Let's all say, "Sorry" to all of those that posted before us, then move on.

If Tom is Eru's little joke, he's been at it quite a long time by the standards of his Children.

Can't a god do without a calendar? Surely Manwe was still at it, and all he got to do is sit and watch the wind.

For Elrond to call a creature old means they are old. 'Oldest and fatherless' I've always taken to mean simply that the Elves had no idea who he was or where he came from: he was just there.
During the time Tom was hanging out in ME, Eru was getting things done; destroying Númenórë and approving the plan hatched by the Valar to send Maia to Middle-earth to lead the fight against Sauron, among others.

Can't a god do more than one thing at once?

That said, if Tom is Eru, I don't know that I'd be inclined to think him insane or 'native', uncaring of the playing out of the Music. Not, as you say, that it would be beyond the abilties of an omnipotent Creator to accomplish the running of the affairs of the world from his 'summer home' in the Old Forest.

What I mean is that He may somehow be knowingly unaware that He's God. That, to me, is a form of insanity.

Conclusion? It seems entirely possible to me that Tom could have been a manifestation of Eru.

At least it is possible.

The idea of Eru splitting into male and female sections that seem deeply in love in with one another I find more than a little distubing.
One the other hand, why not? If Tom is Eru, Goldberry must be accounted for as well, and that's as good an explanation as any.

Why? God begets and creates, but also watches over and provides. To use biological gender terms for a superlative being is simply to show relationship. God need not mixes his/her/its genes, which is the only reason we have the two sexes (some species do just fine without). What struck me, in regards to Eru being Tom *and* Goldberry, is how well they interact when they serve supper to the hobbits. Don't have the text right here, but reread it and you see what I mean.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Interesting view of Bombadil as Eru, but there are problems.
In The Council Of Elrond:
(Glorfindel)

...even if we could, (take the Ring to him unobserved)
soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would
bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone?
I think not...

(Eru less powerful then Sauron)?

And in Letters #144 JRRT sees Bombadil as renouncing control, taking a
"vow of poverty" in a form of pacivism. Not at all the continued involvement
in Middle-earth in the Third Age (sending the Istari, having the Ring fall
off Gollum's hand just in time to be found by Bilbo, putting elvish words
into Sam's mind) all of which would seem to have been either at Iluvatar's
instigation or at least valar initiatives approved by the One.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Interesting view of Bombadil as Eru, but there are problems.

Nothing we cannot account for.

Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone?
I think not...

Conjecture. And I think that it wasn't that Tom wouldn't be able to stand against Sauron and his army. Tom just wouldn't care. He's not playing the game (at least in the role of Tom); he's watching. That's why Gandalf states that Tom would be an unsafe guardian for the Ring, and that even if everyone begged him to take it, he wouldn't keep it safe...which is expected as the Ring is a major player in the game, and how boring life would be without it.

And in Letters #144 JRRT sees Bombadil as renouncing control, taking a "vow of poverty" in a form of pacivism. Not at all the continued involvement in Middle-earth in the Third Age (sending the Istari, having the Ring fall off Gollum's hand just in time to be found by Bilbo, putting elvish words into Sam's mind) all of which would seem to have been either at Iluvatar's instigation or at least valar initiatives approved by the One.

Again, Tom isn't playing. He as Eru may have already set those 'deus a machina' themes to play during their time regardless of where Eru was at at the moment. But just watching from the sidelines, from up in the peanut gallery, just wasn't as fun. Here in Middle Earth Tom could see how all of the playing, both major and minor themes and players, pan out. In Aman the Valar watched the paint dry; in Middle Earth one had the chance to get dirt under one's nails.

And here's the quote that I was looking for:

Originally Posted by In the House of Tom Bombadil

Quickly he (Tom) returned, bearing a large and laden tray. Then Tom and Goldberry set the table; and the hobbits sat half in wonder and half in laughter: so fair was the grace of Goldberry and so merry and odd the caperings of Tom. Yet in some fashion they seemed to weave a single dance, neither hindering the other, in and out of the room, and round the table; and with great speed food and vessels and lights were set in order. (emphasis added)

Two halves of a whole, it seems.

And on that note, I'm calling it a night. Had too many consecutive sleepless nights, and it's starting to show. For a second my briefcase, on the seat next to me, appeared to be a shaggy black dog. I also thought I saw other posts to this thread, but when I turned my head, they were gone as well.

Weird.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I would be disinclined to think that Bombadil was in any way Eru, since it is plainly said that he would fall in the end before the power of Sauron and the Ring, "last as he was first." In letter 181, Tolkien said, "There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology." I would say that pretty well eliminates the Bombadil as Eru concept (sorry, alatar). But it would not eliminate Bombadil "the enigma" as a powerful agent of Eru. I would be more inclined to think that if Bombadil is not a Maia, he is a Vala who, like Tulkas, came after the Ainur first entered Ea, and took up residence on Arda when it was finally formed, perhaps without the knowledge of the other Valar. He may have been planted in Middle-earth by Eru as a potential ace-in-the-hole, so to speak. Well, it's a thought.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Bombadil is master. That is all we know and all we need to know.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I would be more inclined to think that if Bombadil is not a Maia, he is a Vala who, like Tulkas, came after the Ainur first entered Ea, and took up residence on Arda when it was finally formed, perhaps without the knowledge of the other Valar. He may have been planted in Middle-earth by Eru as a potential ace-in-the-hole, so to speak. Well, it's a thought.
__________________

Very interesting. But then who is Bombadil and his mate. And River Woman?
Of course, the maiar seemed to vary in potency (Melkor vs. Sauron) so why not
a powerful maia as an "ace in the hole" or a mole? That sly Eru really plans ahead, eh?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Bombadil is master. That is all we know and all we need to know.

Agreed.
However - viewed purely as an entertaining thought-construct, regardless of its truth value, I find alatar's theory ingenious, especially the part about Fatty Lumpkin as the Third Person of the Trinity. After all, if the Holy Spirit can be symbolized by a pigeon, why not a pony? Both species have been used to convey messages...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Agreed.
However - viewed purely as an entertaining thought-construct, regardless of its truth value, I find alatar's theory ingenious, especially the part about Fatty Lumpkin as the Third Person of the Trinity. After all, if the Holy Spirit can be symbolized by a pigeon, why not a pony? Both species have been used to convey messages...

And we Downers are particularly enamoured of ingenious theories.

Now, I was initially tempted to propose the Dustbroom Motivation. That is, when I read the very first post here, I saw a post desperately in need of a new broom to remove the code from previous forum software. Why, I couldn't even find the post topic amidst all that code! I thought maybe al was nudging our Moddess a bit, to tidy up her fora.

So I gave up and just looked back at alatar's resurrecting posts. Here's what intrigued me:

Originally Posted by the blue wizard

Originally Posted by In the House of Tom Bombadil
Quickly he (Tom) returned, bearing a large and laden tray. Then Tom and Goldberry set the table; and the hobbits sat half in wonder and half in laughter: so fair was the grace of Goldberry and so merry and odd the caperings of Tom. Yet in some fashion they seemed to weave a single dance, neither hindering the other, in and out of the room, and round the table; and with great speed food and vessels and lights were set in order. (emphasis added)

Now, al finds this evidence of two halves. I find it evidence of . . . The Author In His Work.

This bit of Fred and Ginger reminds me of Beren wanting to dance with Luthien, and we all know how autobiographical that part of The Silm is. Just think of the Tolkien headstone.

So, I'm more inclined, if we are going to consider Tom as a creator in his works, to think that Tom just might be Tolkien himself in his works. After all, it would be his little joke to give himself such verse. He would also of course be first, as without him none of it would exist. And he would be immune to the Ring, as he would know the Ring was a fictive construct of his own creation, not some villain's. And it would be just like an Author to send his characters out on adventures while he stays home in his cozy study, dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's and proofreading.


*curtsies*

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I would be disinclined to think that Bombadil was in any way Eru, since it is plainly said that he would fall in the end before the power of Sauron and the Ring, "last as he was first." In letter 181, Tolkien said, "There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology." I would say that pretty well eliminates the Bombadil as Eru concept (sorry, alatar).

What would the mere 'author' know about any of this stuff? Never saw *him* post here on the Downs...probably doesn't even have any rep points...

But all of that in Letter 181 is just to throw you off. How much less would there be to discover if a letter had everything spelled out:

• Tom is Eru

• Balrogs are wingless (though tasty with BBQ sauce)

• Folco Boffin was a spy for Saruman

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Bombadil is master.

That's what Tom thinks and says when Goldberry's not in the room. Note that we first find him down by the Withywindle, running errands for her when we guys know that he'd rather be catching up on the local news with Farmer Maggot over a few pints.

[Pitchwife]

Sorry to double-post, but I missed alatar's last before posting mine.

Originally Posted by alatar

That's what Tom thinks and says when Goldberry's not in the room.

Actually, it's Goldberry herself who says that about him:

Frodo looked at her questioningly. 'He is, as you have seen him', she said in answer to his look. 'He is the master of wood, water, and hill.'

And a little further down the page:

'Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom [...] He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.'

(Charming passage, by the way. Doesn't she sound like a woman who is really proud of the man she loves?)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Actually, it's Goldberry herself who says that about him:

(Charming passage, by the way. Doesn't she sound like a woman who is really proud of the man she loves?)

It's not what she says when there is company around that interests me, it's what she says when no one is there.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

alatar, alatar, alatar...are you being tongue in cheek regarding this topic? Be careful, or I may start quoting The Silmarillion regarding the balrogs flying "with winged speed".

Wow! I'd hate to stare up at clouds next to you...

alatar - "That one...there!...looks like some guy painting the side of a castle with pompoms while a zebra in a hard hat in a jeep looks on while working at a laptop..."

Morthoron - "It's a cumulus cloud already!"



That all said, I'm just showing that even Tolkien didn't know that he was including Eru into the story, but he did, deny it as he might.

[Morthoron]

*Sighs*

alatar, alatar, alatar...are you being tongue in cheek regarding this topic? Be careful, or I may start quoting The Silmarillion regarding the balrogs flying "with winged speed".

Bombadil is not 'Eru's little joke'; he is, in fact, Tolkien's little joke. He is 'first' because he did indeed come far before the writing of LotR (Tom was that creepy little stuffed doll haunting the Tolkien's nursery). The ring does not affect him because he comes from outside of the story. He is a localized phenomena, a manifestation of something Tolkien felt important (the vanishing English countryside of his youth -- Bombadil is, for all intents and purposes, a version of the English Jack-in-the-Green), and Tolkien asked his publisher Unwin in a letter if he might include Bombadil for that reason, not because Tom had anything at all germane to do with the story.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by alatar

• Tom is Eru

So that's why he's always singing. Now you know what the Music of the Ainur really sounded like .

Anyway, I think he is more something that Eru put there to be an antidote to the evil of Middle-Earth, so in a way, he is a manifestation of Eru, as he does what Eru wants, but isn't actually him.

And also, remember the whole thing about trolls being made in mockery of Ents and Orcs being made in mockery of Elves/Men? I would assume that this was already decided in the Music, and that Melkor, hearing of Tom Bombadil (literally), created an opposite, Ungoliant. I'm sure that somewhere I've read that she is the primeval spirit of darkness and so, according to this, Tom would be the primeval spirit of good.

This would actually make sense, as Tom is sort of made to be a perfect being: He is kind and carefree, he is a perfect partner with his wife (and together they make a whole), he is in tune with nature and isn't against it (e.g. he can talk to trees), he is his own master (nothing can take control of his mind, and he is himself all the time), and best of all, he is happy.

And would you put it past Eru to make Goldberry for Tom, as God made Eve for Adam?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Anyway, I think he is more something that Eru put there to be an antidote to the evil of Middle-Earth, so in a way, he is a manifestation of Eru, as he does what Eru wants, but isn't actually him.

And also, remember the whole thing about trolls being made in mockery of Ents and Orcs being made in mockery of Elves/Men? I would assume that this was already decided in the Music, and that Melkor, hearing of Tom Bombadil (literally), created an opposite, Ungoliant. I'm sure that somewhere I've read that she is the primeval spirit of darkness and so, according to this, Tom would be the primeval spirit of good.

Nay, that really doesn't work. Tom does not actually DO much, does he? Tom could be a spirit of the primeval, good (in the sense: unspoiled, undisturbed) Arda, however, he just is not able to cope with the flow of events. Or, let's say, history. He is old and can just live, live and live on and time can pass him by and not affect him - but at the same time, history works and affects everybody around him violently. "He's a moss-gatherer", and Gandalf put it quite well in this comparison of his, the forces who were able to actually act on good's behalf and stand against Sauron or whatever were not Tom, but messengers like Gandalf, "a stone doomed to rolling". Tom portrays the ideal state, something like the Shire as it was isolated from the outside world - even though it could not escape it eventually, as it HAD TO be touched by the history, as it WAS a part of the history too (or "was in it", or how to put it. And now I am not referring to the Ring or anything, I am speaking on very general terms).

I think Bombadil is the extreme example of isolation "outside" the history - almost, or on the very edge (mostly as an observer - as we are shown in the places where he tells something about old Arnor, the barrows or the woman wearing the jewel from that tomb). Only if it really came to that Tom would keep the Ring, and Sauron would have had to confront him, he would came into real "touch" with the history. But not otherwise. See, there was Sauron's rule all over Eriador (except Lindon) in the dark ages, while Tom was apparently still there in his place. Nothing touched him, and he was of no concern to Sauron's rule. No threat, except that maybe he could offer a shelter to a few passers-by - just like with Frodo. But he really didn't have any special "agenda", did he? He just helped Frodo because he managed to stop by, not because he would have some real urge to contribuge to destroying Sauron.

All in all, Tom is really the closest to nature - also in this sense. But he has little to do with the history of humans, elves, hobbits or Dark Lords. In this way, he is not really a representative of any powers of the West or anything - he is just too passive, as in comparison to the Istari's mission, for example. Therefore, even his connection as some manifestation of Eru would be a bit doubtful (though it is true that theologically, Eru is not one of the most active gods himself, or at least he does not seem to be in the process of history - though still, TB is just too much even for him, and Eru has all these delegates like Valar and delegates of delegates like the Istari).