When did the last of the High Elves leave Middle Earth ?

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, going back to the Letter #144 quote, Tolkien, at least at that time, was apparently certain that the High Elves encountered in LOTR were Noldorin.

He refers to them as 'Exiles', and 'part of one of the last main kindreds of the Eldar: the Noldor.'

Right, letter 144 was written to Naomi Mitchison in April 1954, where Tolkien says the High Elves met in the book are Exiles. In letter 154 to Naomi Mitchison in September 1954 Tolkien appears to equate High Elves with Eldar rather -- this is the reference that Hammond and Scull note in their Companion actually.

But rather than argue that Tolkien changed his mind later that same year (to possibly change it again some time later), I would rather suggest that two applications existed, for it is easy enough to imagine how High Elves came to be equated with Eldar (among the Quendi 'the Eldar were as kings' according to Appendix F). The term Eldar itself appears to have altered in reference as well.

And yet it's also easily seen how the same term could technically refer to those Eldar who had passed over Sea. For me the question becomes, how is it used in The Lord of the Rings proper? and need it be used consistently, even there?

[JeffF.]

Another factor to consider is that most of hte Noldor would not have been to Aman rather they would be descendants of those. The various disasters sufered by the Noldor kingdoms in Beleriand must have resulted in the deaths of most of them. After the Valar and their host overthrew Morgoth they recalled the Exiles some of whom answered the call and some of whom did not. Those Noldor born in Middle Earth were technically Dark Elves and yet the culture seems to still be referred to as "High Elves."

There also seems to be much merging between the surviving Sindar and Noldor in the Second Age, at least they are a single kindgom under Gil-galad but again they seem to be referred to collectively as High Elves.

Yet the use of the term is still not consistent because if High Elves equates to Eldar which equates to all Elves who at least BEGAN thejourney to Aman then the Silvan Elves should technically be Eldar also but Tolkien distinguishes them from High Elves (I noticed Unifinished Tales, Galadriel and Celeborn, states that the Silvan Elves remembered with pride that they were "in origin" Eldar). Does that mean the Green Elves of Ossiriand (who broke off from the Elves of Greenwood) are considered Eldar/High Elves just because they resumed their journey? It almost seems there is a geographical boundary distinguishing the Eldar, either the Mistly Mountains or the Blue Mountains.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by JeffF

(...) Yet the use of the term is still not consistent because if High Elves equates to Eldar which equates to all Elves who at least BEGAN the journey to Aman then the Silvan Elves should technically be Eldar also but Tolkien distinguishes them from High Elves (I noticed Unifinished Tales, Galadriel and Celeborn, states that the Silvan Elves remembered with pride that they were "in origin" Eldar). Does that mean the Green Elves of Ossiriand (who broke off from the Elves of Greenwood) are considered Eldar/High Elves just because they resumed their journey? It almost seems there is a geographical boundary distinguishing the Eldar, either the Mistly Mountains or the Blue Mountains.

I would suggest that any instances in The Lord of the Rings where High Elves might equate with Eldar, it does so with Eldar in the sense of West Elves.

As I noted above, Eldar itself has variant references, especially considering 'unpublished' text. Again, going by what Tolkien himself published in The Lord of the Rings at least, Eldar refers to the West Elves -- the Elves who passed Over Sea plus the Sindar only, and does not include the East-elves of Lórien or Mirkwood.

BTW, interesting again is Christopher Tolkien's entry for Eldar in The Children of Húrin (list of names):

Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.

To Beleriand 'and (some) beyond' yes, but this is basically Tolkien's definition of Eldar in The Lord of the Rings -- in other words, 'as far West as Beleriand' and thus the Sindar are West-Elves or Eldar -- while the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lórien are 'not Eldar' (Tolkien avoids the term Avari in the published text, which means something more specific).

In general the 'problem' is, as in the Primary World, terms change or can have different applications depending on who is using them, and when. And in this circumstance, we are also trying to find a certain measure of consistency when dealing with what are essentially draft texts (or statements in letters), mixed with author-published 'final' texts.

[Keyan]

2 September 1973

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Sorry but Beren wasn't an Elf

[Keyan]

Yeah I know.

Just wondering who would get the reference..of course, the answer here would probably be "everyone", but ya know...