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Old 08-01-2009, 03:24 PM   #1
Eönwë
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Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Eönwë is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
Well, what we do know is that it was definitely no later than when Sam left (in SR 1482, which I think is FA 60), because in The Tale of Years it says

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tale of Years, SR 1482
Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers
Which means that at the very latest Cirdan left with him then, but definitely no later.
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Old 08-01-2009, 04:18 PM   #2
Inziladun
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Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
To further muddy the waters, there is this from Letter #144.

Quote:
The High Elves met in this book (LOTR) are exiles, returned back over Sea to Middle-earth, after events which are the main matter of the Silmarillion, part of one of the main kindreds of the Eldar: the Noldor (Masters of Lore). Or rather a last remnant of these....those who lingered were those who were enamoured of Middle-earth and yet desired the unchanging beauty of the Land of the Valar. Hence the making of the Rings....when the One goes, the last defenders of High-elven lore and beauty are shorn of their power to hold back time, and depart.
I read that as saying all the Noldor left with the Keepers of the Three. The Prologue notwithstanding, what possible reason would any of them have had for staying in ME when Elrond and Galadriel had gone? I always saw the departure of those two as a vastly symbolic moment: the 'official' acknowledgement of the High Elves that their time was up, and they must make way for the Age of Men.
The Silvan Elves were a different matter. They had spent their entire lives far away from the Sea, and knew nothing of the Sea-longing. I doubt Legolas himself would ever have passed Over Sea had he not chanced to hear the cry of the gulls along the coasts of Gondor. I'm fairly certain many of the Silvan Elves never left, and indeed suffered the 'fading' they were doomed to undergo, holding fast to ME to the end.
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Old 08-02-2009, 10:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Inziladun
I had forgotten that quote from the Prologue. I recalled Celeborn going to Rivendell, but I don't believe Celeborn was of the High Elves. Wasn't he one of the Sindar from Doriath?
Yes Celeborn was Sindarin -- the Teler of Aman idea being essentially a draft idea.

Quote:
The only explanation for the apparent variance between the statements in the Silm and FOTR would seem to be that some of the remaining High Elves were not of the Noldor, though I don't know how that could be.
It could be because the term High-Elves appears sometimes equated with Eldar (despite the definition of Tareldar published in Morgoth's Ring). For the latest bolstering of this usage (gleaned from Tolkien's own examples), see Christopher Tolkien's description of the Quendi in his Introduction to The Children of Húrin.

I don't know if Tolkien meant the two texts to be taken this way: in other words, maybe the text published in The Lord of the Rings was meant to supersede the description in Of the Rings of Power; but in any case it appears that 'High Elves' can have more than one application.
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:59 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
I don't know if Tolkien meant the two texts to be taken this way: in other words, maybe the text published in The Lord of the Rings was meant to supersede the description in Of the Rings of Power; but in any case it appears that 'High Elves' can have more than one application.
Upon further examination, it seems 'High Elves' in LOTR does refer exclusively to the Noldor.

Quote:
'These are High Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!' said Frodo in amazement!
Quote:
'Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.
Exiles=Noldor

I found another quote in ROTK that supports the statement in the Prologue.

Quote:
Then Elrond and Galadriel rode on.....with them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth.
So, the answer to the question of when the last of the High Elves left for the West seems to depend upon which text Tolkien intended to be the 'final word'; the Silmarillion or the LOTR.
I would prefer to think they all went with Elrond, as that simply seems the most fitting to me.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Inziladun
Upon further examination, it seems 'High Elves' in LOTR does refer exclusively to the Noldor.
I don't think this is necessarily so. An instance in Appendix B appears to include the Sindar, and is arguably (in part) the source for Robert Foster's comment below. And the Sindar would used the name Elbereth too -- with reference to the statement from Frodo that you raised.

In my opinion a stronger statement for your case appears in Appendix F. But my point is, since two applications appear to exist, even if one outweighs the other in number, one cannot assume an exclusively Noldorin application exists for all occurances in The Lord of the Rings.

Quote:
Robert Foster's guide (a version written before Silmarillion was published): 'High Elves The Eldar.'

Hammond And Scull (The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, chapter Three Is Company).: '(Elsewhere Tolkien equates Eldar with the High Elves (see note for p. 43),...'

Christopher Tolkien (Introduction to Children of Húrin): '... and they are called the Eldar, the Elves of the Great Journey, the High Elves: distinct from those who, refusing the summons, chose Middle-earth for their land and their destiny. They are the 'lesser Elves', called Avari, the Unwilling.
So again, what about The Lord of the Rings alone? Perhaps one can interpret the term to refer to the Exiles at all instances, but I don't see this as a given necessarily.

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Old 08-02-2009, 05:17 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Galin View Post
So again, what about The Lord of the Rings alone? Perhaps one can interpret the term to refer to the Exiles at all instances, but I don't see this as a given necessarily.
Well, going back to the Letter #144 quote, Tolkien, at least at that time, was apparently certain that the High Elves encountered in LOTR were Noldorin.
He refers to them as 'Exiles', and 'part of one of the last main kindreds of the Eldar: the Noldor.'
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Old 08-02-2009, 06:00 PM   #7
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The Mouth of Sauron has just left Hobbiton.
The fact remains that after Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf left Middle Earth, there were still in total many thousands of Elves who remained there who hadn't yet sailed, who lived in at least the following locations :-

- west of the Shire
- Rivendell
- Woodland Realm, Mirkwood
- Lorien
- East Lorien, Mirkwood
- Ithilien

It's also possible that some elves may have been in the far east of Middle Earth, having never made the journey westward throughout the ages.

So did they all sail eventually ?
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:36 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
Well, going back to the Letter #144 quote, Tolkien, at least at that time, was apparently certain that the High Elves encountered in LOTR were Noldorin.

He refers to them as 'Exiles', and 'part of one of the last main kindreds of the Eldar: the Noldor.'
Right, letter 144 was written to Naomi Mitchison in April 1954, where Tolkien says the High Elves met in the book are Exiles. In letter 154 to Naomi Mitchison in September 1954 Tolkien appears to equate High Elves with Eldar rather -- this is the reference that Hammond and Scull note in their Companion actually.

But rather than argue that Tolkien changed his mind later that same year (to possibly change it again some time later), I would rather suggest that two applications existed, for it is easy enough to imagine how High Elves came to be equated with Eldar (among the Quendi 'the Eldar were as kings' according to Appendix F). The term Eldar itself appears to have altered in reference as well.

And yet it's also easily seen how the same term could technically refer to those Eldar who had passed over Sea. For me the question becomes, how is it used in The Lord of the Rings proper? and need it be used consistently, even there?
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