Frodo's Barrow Dilemma

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Gothbogg the Ripper

I doubt they would have seen him. Whereas the Ringwraiths were cunning enemies and the cream of Sauron's crop, the Barrow-Wights were merely puppets. Called up by the Witch-King if I am not mistaken.
And whilst the Nazgul were neither dead nor alive, the Barrow-Wights were most certainly dead. So, no ring-vision for them!

I disagree. It is not a question of Power, it is a question of access to the Spirit World.

Putting on the Ring, Frodo is transferred from the ordinary physical world into the Shadow/Spirit world and thus becomes invisible to mortal eyes, to all the eyes of the ordinary physical World. On the contrary, wearing the Ring he becomes fully visible to all the denizens of the Spirit world: ghosts, spirits, wraiths, ringwraiths etc. He would also still be visible to those "who dwell in both words": Calaquendi Elves (like Glorfindel or Galadriel) and Tom Bombadil.

Barrow wights are in essence SPIRITS:

It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.- LOTR, App A.

It is not important that the spirits animated the dead bodies in the Barrows, still all spirits exist primarily in the Spirit World. They would see Frodo with the Ring clearly.

The Nazgûl found one another easily, since they were quickly aware of a companion presence, and could hear the cries over great distances. They could see one another also from far away, even by day when to them a Nazgûl was the one clearly visible thing in a mist. Reader's Companion p. 164

The denizens of the Spirit World had no problems seeing each other, by day or by night. The wielder of the One Ring or a ghost of Dunharrow, or a Barrow-Wight would be as easily detectable to a nazgul as another nazgul: they all share the same World.

It is to see things of the Ordinary physical World (and especially to interact with them) that the nazgul and other Spirit World dwellers needed extra-powers and extra-efforts.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

On the contrary, wearing the Ring he becomes fully visible to all the denizens of the Spirit world: ghosts, spirits, wraiths, ringwraiths etc. He would also still be visible to those "who dwell in both words": Calaquendi Elves (like Glorfindel or Galadriel) and Tom Bombadil.

Oddly, Gandalf apparently could not see someone wearing the One. He certainly was from the Blessed Realm.
I would say that his being clothed in a real body may have been a factor, but why should that be an impediment to him and not Bombadil?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Oddly, Gandalf apparently could not see someone wearing the One. He certainly was from the Blessed Realm.

In LOTR there are no cases of Gandalf not seeing the wearer of the One.

In "the Hobbit" the evidence is controversial IIRC: maybe he did, maybe he did not.

Note also that at the time of writing of "the Hobbit", Tolkien has not yet developed the conception of the Spirit /Shadow World versus the World of Light, had no idea about the nature of Bilbo's Ring and had Gandalf as a Man, not a Maia. "The Hobbit" is not a good source of evidence for such things.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In LOTR there are no cases of Gandalf not seeing the wearer of the One.

'Hullo!' said Bilbo. 'I wondered if you would turn up.' I am glad to find you visible,' replied the wizard, sitting down in a chair, 'I wanted to catch you and have a few final words.'

FOTR A Long-Expected Party
(emphasis added)

If Gandalf was capable of seeing the wearer of the Ring, why would he make such a statement? How would he know, by appearance, whether Bilbo wore the Ring or not?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

FOTR A Long-Expected Party
(emphasis added)

If Gandalf was capable of seeing the wearer of the Ring, why would he make such a statement? How would he know, by appearance, whether Bilbo wore the Ring or not?

Gandalf likely lived in both Worlds and could see the Seen and the Unseen. Yet, there is no indication he saw both the same way or could mistake the Shadow-Word image for the World of Light one. Bilbo wearing the Ring likely appeared to Gandalf somewhat shadowy, ghost-like.

Look at Frodo at the Ford. Due to his Morgul-wound he is more than half-way into the Shadow-World: he sees the Nazgul clearly, the mortals only as pale shadows (but he still sees them) and Glorfindel as a figure of light:

Checking the horse to a walk, [Frodo] turned and looked back. The Riders seemed to sit upon their great steeds like threatening statues upon a hill, dark and solid, while all the woods and land about them receded as if into a mist.[...] He could see [the Riders] clearly now: they appeared to have cast aside their hoods and black cloaks, and they were robed in white and grey. Swords were naked in their pale hands; helms were on their heads. Their cold eyes glittered, and they called to him with fell voices.[...]
With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Gandalf likely lived in both Worlds and could see the Seen and the Unseen. Yet, there is no indication he saw both the same way or could mistake the Shadow-Word image for the World of Light one. Bilbo wearing the Ring likely appeared to Gandalf somewhat shadowy, ghost-like.

Look at Frodo at the Ford. Due to his Morgul-wound he is more than half-way into the Shadow-World: he sees the Nazgul clearly, the mortals only as pale shadows (but he still sees them) and Glorfindel as a figure of light:

Speculation, but logical enough. It still doesn't make sense though, why Gandalf would make that remark about Bilbo being visible, if he could already see him, shadowy or not.

[Findegil]

For me it makes a lot of sense:
- Bilbo did not know that Gandalf could see him, when he wore the ring. The revelation when Gandalf would have spoken to him while he sought himself invisible would have been a shock. Reading between the lines we can see that Gandalf would have found Bilbo anyway.
- Bilbo not wearing the ring does provide a better chance for him leaving it behind for Frodo. To secure this plan, devised by Gandalf, was the reason for Gandalf looking for Bilbo at that moment.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In "the Hobbit" the evidence is controversial IIRC: maybe he did, maybe he did not.

Note also that at the time of writing of "the Hobbit", Tolkien has not yet developed the conception of the Spirit /Shadow World versus the World of Light, had no idea about the nature of Bilbo's Ring and had Gandalf as a Man, not a Maia. "The Hobbit" is not a good source of evidence for such things.

Now... this gets into Canoncity (which, I confess, I am drawn to like a moth to a flame this summer), but Tolkien's own opinion preferred very much to consider anything published--which includes The Hobbit--as canon. Now, it is true that Tolkien gave up the attempt (published in Part II of The History of the Hobbit to rewrite The Hobbit completely, so there certainly remain inconsistencies--notably in the chronology and geography between Hobbiton and Rivendell. However, where there is NOT a statement of contradiction between the books, I think it would be in keeping with Tolkien's own principle to consider The Hobbit as an authoritative source for information wherever The Lord of the Rings says nothing.

Of course, this proceeds from the canonical principle (which I espouse) that the author is the arbiter of the canon, not the reader.