The creature Gothmog at the Siege of Minas Tirith

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gordis

After all, can you find a single quote where "Minas Tirith" is called simply "Tirith"? There is not a single case. Why would Minas Morgul be different? Why would it be called simply "Morgul" so many times?

That's an interesting comparison, and it's got me thinking about the meaning of both "Tirith" and "Morgûl." In neither case, if you consider the meaning, does it make any sense to say "Tirith's defences" or "Morgûl's armies." At least, it doesn't make much sense to me, since, literally, you'd be saying "the guard's defences" or "black sorcery's armies"--assuming you were referring to the cities, anyway. And, as both the progenitor of Sindarin and a linguist by trade, it seems unlikely--to me--that Tolkien would have used the Sindarin words and not considered their meaning simultaneously.

That being said, though...

I don't know that that actually proves that "Morgûl" on its own can be taken, therefore, as a marker of the Witch-king--at least not on a straight parallel to Minas Tirith, since if one refers to a ruler by the place he is ruler of, then it would follow here that, to parallel the use of "Angmar" as signifying the Witch-king, you should really be using "Minas Morgûl" to signify the Witch-king--unless, perhaps, you want to make the argument that "Black Sorcery" is being used, not to signify a place the Witch-king is lord over and identified with, but a thing or idea he is being identified with as the public body--the embodiment of. Which is an argument you can make... but I don't think the parallel with Minas Tirith entails it.

[Boromir88]

I don't know that that actually proves that "Morgûl" on its own can be taken, therefore, as a marker of the Witch-king~Formendacil

Well it wasn't changed from Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul until after the Nazgul took possession.

However, it does lie in the Morgul vale, or Imlad Morgul, which as far as I know was always the name of the area surrounding Minas Ithil/Morgul.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well it wasn't changed from Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul until after the Nazgul took possession.

However, it does lie in the Morgul vale, or Imlad Morgul, which as far as I know was always the name of the area surrounding Minas Ithil/Morgul.

I am pretty sure Imlad Morgul was formerly known as Imlad Ithil and Morgulduin likely was Ithilduin...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I am pretty sure Imlad Morgul was formerly known as Imlad Ithil and Morgulduin likely was Ithilduin...

Hmm...I thought Imlad Morgul was the original name, or in the very least the original name was never given and when the Nazgul came to town it is called Imlad Morgul. Given Minas Ithil (to Minas Morgul) and Ithilduin (to Morgulduin), Imlad Ithil would make sense, but I haven't come across Imlad Ithil before.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Hmm...I thought Imlad Morgul was the original name, or in the very least the original name was never given and when the Nazgul came to town it is called Imlad Morgul. Given Minas Ithil (to Minas Morgul) and Ithilduin (to Morgulduin), Imlad Ithil would make sense, but I haven't come across Imlad Ithil before.

Well, it would have to be a complete interpolation, but I think it's a perfectly valid one, myself. It would make no sense to have the early Gondorians building a city in the "Vale of Black Sorcery" or drinking from the headwaters of the "Black Sorcery River." Indeed, it would almost make the takeover of Minas Ithil by the Witch-king not at all an act of Sauron's evil, but a natural restoration of the proper order in the valley--and the (to me obvious) inference that it was named Morgûl, Black Sorcery, because of the Black Sorceror that moved there would be lost completely.

Whether or not the Gondorians previously used Ithil in all cases where Morgûl later sufficed is impossible to be certain--though not unreasonable. It's quite possible, though, that they had "Minas Ithil," "Imlad Isildur," and "Duathduin" for all we know. All that we know is that, in 3018-3019, they all used "Morgûl" and that it seems to be inferential that the names in all three cases followed from the capture of the tower and city.

[Gordis]

Note also that Minas Ithil reflects the name of Isildur and Minas Anor reflects the name of Anarion.
Likely Minas Morgul reflects the name of the Witch-King.

Otherwhise how come both the Gondorians and the Mordorians started to use the same name "Minas Morgul" after 2002? It is unlikely they have agreed on it. So, who was the first to call it "Minas Morgul" and why?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Gordis is not arguing at all, as I understand it, that the Witch-king's personal name was Angmar, but merely demonstrating that this type of usage is made use of by Tolkien in reference to the Witch-king: that is, he is referred to by the land he is identified with as lord. In the case of the Kingdom of Angmar, this is incontrovertible. Personally, I find Gordis's reasoning for a like reference where "Morgûl" is made use of in the text to be convincing.

I am aware of that usage. The fact that he was the 'Lord of Angmar' because he ruled that region would seem to weaken the case for Minas Morgul being his later eponymous capital city rather than strengthening it.

As to who used the name 'Minas Morgul' first, Gandalf called the Black Captain 'a great king and sorceror of old'. I see no problem with the view that it was so named by the Gondorians, who were well aware of the nature of the creatures in command there.

Another question, having to do with this passage:

(Frodo) knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king-- not yet.

TTT The Stairs of Cirith Ungol

The Morgul-king? Why not 'face King Morgul'?