The Wise in Middle Earth

[JeffF.]

I just wanted to respond to the original post. Elrond never said he would choose Glorfindel over Pippin. Gandalf used Glorfindel as an example of a potential alternate to Pippin. Elrond's objection to Pippin was his age (by his own admition in RotK Pippin was not yet at the hobbit age of adulthood) and wished to send him with warning to the Shire to prepare as best they could.

Glorfindel would not have been all that bad a choice. An elflord with his power "revealed in his wrath" would have been an excellent way of fixing Sauron's attention and distracting him from the real ringbearer, but in all likelihood it would probably have been Glorfindel who would fall fighting the Balrog in Moria rather than Gandalf (since he'd killed one before at the Fall of Gondolin at the cost of his own life), but then Gandalf would not have been reincarnated as Gandalf the White.

[narfforc]

Glorfindel was supposed to have been sent 'back' to renforce Gil-galad and Elrond early in The Second Age. Imladris was the last bastion of strength for the Noldorin Elves, I don't think Elrond would have let Glorfindel go anyway. If Lorien or The Woodland Realm in the North fell, then Imladris would have been the last refuge for their remnants on the way to the Grey Havens.

[JeffF.]

But what would Elrond have been saving Glorfindel for? By his own admission at his council Elrond had no host of elves. The High elves were leaving and it is doubtful Imladris could have held out much despite the power of Elrond's Ring (some force of arms was still needed, even by Galadriel). The mission of the Fellowship was an all-or-nothing, do-or-die plan. At least the High Elves could have done SOMETHING or at least been represented by him (as the four hobbits did for their people).

[narfforc]

I think that if everything had gone wrong, the retreat to Mithlond and it's rearguard defence was important. This would have required some measure of strength, until as many elves as possible could be saved. You would not normally send your best general of on a quest, one based mostly on hope, which on the face of it had little chance of succeeding, and you would want your best soldiers with you if it did fail.

[Vultur]

Galadriel wasn't necessarily 'unwise' to think she could take the One Ring - she recognizes that she would become evil in the process. (She probably could, in a simple question of ability: she is arguably the most powerful being, after Sauron, in Middle-Earth at this point. Tolkien wrote that Feanor and Galadriel were "the greatest of all the Eldar"; and the greatest Eldar seem to be on equal level with Balrogs etc.)

One thing I've always wondered: would the Elves' retreat to the West, if Sauron had been victorious, prove to be a false hope in the end? Sauron, being a Maia rather than a mortal, might have been able to find the Straight Road - wearing the Ring, could even Valinor resist him forever? Tolkien said, at least in late writings (published in Morgoth's Ring), that the Valar too 'faded' in a sense; and that 'Sauron at the end of the Second Age was 'greater', comparatively, than Morgoth at the end of the First'. Repossessed of his Ring, would he not return to his full might which he possessed at the end of the Second Age?

It seems to me that the West must ultimately not have been a safe refuge: else the Ring could simply be taken West and kept in, say, Ulmo's safekeeping.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Vultur

One thing I've always wondered: would the Elves' retreat to the West, if Sauron had been victorious, prove to be a false hope in the end? Sauron, being a Maia rather than a mortal, might have been able to find the Straight Road - wearing the Ring, could even Valinor resist him forever?.
Tolkien said, at least in late writings (published in Morgoth's Ring), that the Valar too 'faded' in a sense; and that 'Sauron at the end of the Second Age was 'greater', comparatively, than Morgoth at the end of the First'. Repossessed of his Ring, would he not return to his full might which he possessed at the end of the Second Age?

Despite the fears of Frodo that 'over the Sea' would not be 'wide enough to keep the Shadow out', I don't think the Valar had anything to fear from Sauron.
I don't have Morgoth's Ring, but it seems illogical that Sauron the Maia, even with his Ring, could be said to be more powerful than Morgoth, even after the latter's millenia of expending his innate power and will in the domination of others.
Throughout the First Age, the major defeats of Morgoth, by which I mean the overthrowing of his military might and forcible removal from his stronghold, were accomplished only by direct intervention of the Valar.
Compare that to Sauron, whose armies were destroyed and he himself personally vanquished (if only temporarily) by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, who had no 'divine' assistance in their fight. And Sauron suffered that humiliation while in possession of the Ring.
As to the Valar 'fading', again, I haven't seen the reference you speak of, but I would like to know the reason they would 'fade'. Even if they were doing so, Sauron would seem to be much weaker himself by the time of the War of The Ring than at the end of the Second Age; he had been forced to re-body again, which was a drain on his power, and, as Morgoth, had wasted his power in the domination of his servants.

Originally Posted by Vultur

It seems to me that the West must ultimately not have been a safe refuge: else the Ring could simply be taken West and kept in, say, Ulmo's safekeeping.

It wasn't that it would not have been a safe place to guard the Ring, but, as Gandalf told the Council of Elrond, the Ring was Middle-earth's problem, and those in the West would not have allowed it to be brought there.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

I just wanted to respond to the original post. Elrond never said he would choose Glorfindel over Pippin. Gandalf used Glorfindel as an example of a potential alternate to Pippin. Elrond's objection to Pippin was his age (by his own admition in RotK Pippin was not yet at the hobbit age of adulthood) and wished to send him with warning to the Shire to prepare as best they could.

Glorfindel would not have been all that bad a choice. An elflord with his power "revealed in his wrath" would have been an excellent way of fixing Sauron's attention and distracting him from the real ringbearer, but in all likelihood it would probably have been Glorfindel who would fall fighting the Balrog in Moria rather than Gandalf (since he'd killed one before at the Fall of Gondolin at the cost of his own life), but then Gandalf would not have been reincarnated as Gandalf the White.

Let's be honest - it was insanity sending 4 hobbits off to Mordor in the first place. And incredible that Elrond, Gandalf and Aragorn would countenance such a move.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Let's be honest - it was insanity sending 4 hobbits off to Mordor in the first place. And incredible that Elrond, Gandalf and Aragorn would countenance such a move.

Not to nitpick (Heaven forbid! ), but really only one Hobbit was 'sent' to Mordor: Frodo. The rest, with the remainder of the Fellowship, were merely companions to aid him along the way, for as far as they would, or could continue.
The choice of who was to go was, I think, primarily Elrond's, though he gave in to Gandalf's wish to allow Merry and Pippin. Aragorn seems to have played no part in the selection, beyond volunteering himself. Gandalf obviously had, though maybe not conciously, a foresight that Merry and Pippin would play a crucial role, and Elrond was wise enough to trust him.