WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Mac

The plan was therefore to spare him from the mod and get him lynched or hunter-killed. I voted him twice and he narrowly got away just because the innocents liked him so much.

Now why is it whenever a wolf team actually wants to sacrifice a fellow, the village just won't cooperate? I mean really, guys.

Originally Posted by Mith

Frustrating especially when you point out that the lack of modfire might be for the wolf reason and you get ignored completely or are rather patronisingly accused of being misguided.

I didn't not modfire just because Gwath was an aggressor, but because his death would've resulted in my game ending prematurely. If Gwath was an innocent and modfiring him would suddenly end my game (and make an instant win for the baddies), then I would've done the same thing.

Originally Posted by Boromir

In this new type of game, of course you want balance, but how many times were the innocents handicapped to achieve that balance? We lynched blindly, no roles revealed (though arguably in any game we do technically lynch 'blindly' anyway, we just feel better about our lynches, and it doesn't turn into a "well you are not suspecting me for anything" match), seer dead and gone no Night 2, and the mutineers were granted special circumstances to hang around. When Wilwa said she had to leave, she was removed immediately, and I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm just saying what I see what happened.

I don't think this is the first game where roles weren't revealed upon lynching. Yes, it's a bit of a disadvantage for the innocents, but more than anything it just means a change of strategy. And I did balance it out by allowing the dead to talk. Even though Night kills aren't necessarily innocent, they aren't wolves, which means the village has practically known innocents around. If a player was a threat, the wolves couldn't shut them up, which is a disadvantage for them.

This particular game may have swayed in the baddies' favour, but it could've just as easily swayed in the village's favour. If the spy wasn't killed early, she could've dreamt of one, two, or even more aggressors...and she wouldn't have to worry about taking her dreams to the grave. The hunter could've taken down another baddie, rather than an innocent. If the game had gone that way, it'd probably be the aggressors who thought they had an unfair disadvantage...

As for wilwa, she specifically asked me to modfire her, so there really was no way to avoid that. She couldn't play anymore and was most likely not coming back.

Originally Posted by Boromir

In any game, the ordos already start out at a disadvantage, for not knowing who anyone else is, and far more things have to go right for the baddies to get slaughtered. You need a seer to pick out some lucky choices, maybe the hunter snatches on, a few Ranger protection, and overall the ordos need to place their trust in the right people...far more things have to be in sync for the village to get a smashing victory. Where the wolves, already being advantaged, can slaughter the innocents with far less having to go right for them, and of course why they win more often than not.

That's interesting because I've always seen it as the complete opposite with the village having the advantage. They have power in numbers and while several mistakes could become a problem, there is still room for mis-lynches. Meanwhile if the wolves are unlucky and one or more of their own is lynched, it can be costly. Plus, a seer can be quite the deadly weapon. Not only can they reveal wolves, but the fear of simply having one around and dreaming can affect the baddies' behaviour.

Originally Posted by Boromir

And in my opinion, any decision about Gwath or Mira should not have been influenced by Kath or Mac. Kath and Mac made choices which led to their own lynching...none of it was 'unfair,' enough innocents thought they looked guilty and they got lynched. Mac did a stellar job surviving for as long as he did, and getting us to lynch our Ranger, but that was his choice and he ended up lynched for it. At least in my opinion, it should not have played any factor (but we can respectfully disagree ).

Mac and Kath were justly lynched and indeed it was their own choices that led to their fate. But there is a reason why the wolves are a team. Teammates should be able to rely on one another; sometimes bad luck strikes one baddie, but that shouldn't doom the entire team. If one or two wolves are lynched, then the best they can hope for is that their mates will survive (if they aren't already the last one) and the doomed wolves can contribute towards their mates' survival by how they treat them in the Day while still alive (and in this case, even after). For example, it was extremely bad luck in Fea's game when both my mates were lynched the same Day due to a seer reveal. But that shouldn't have meant the end for the baddies because there was a third wolf, and as that third wolf I knew it was my responsibility to make a win for the team. So when half of a wolf team is lost to modfire, it's a severe handicap for the other two. Because they should have other teammates to rely on and they don't. Does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by Boromir

However, the village was stripped of a win here, and one that I think they deserved to win, for playing cohesively and playing together well enough to lynch 3 muties based on their own decisions.

Well it's difficult to say, but if Gwath had been around every Day, the baddies still could've won. Or maybe his presence would affect the actions of the baddies in a negative way causing them to lose. We'll never know. I would never say the innocents played poorly; you played extremely well. But the baddies played well too.

If I ended the game with modfire, allowing the innocents to easily win, I was sure I would get several complaints and unhappy reactions with the results. The baddies would claim they had an unfair disadvantage, and some innocents might feel that their win was not completely deserved since modfire took care of half the baddies for them (at least that would be my reaction if I were an innocent in this situation). And like I said, ending a game with modfire ruins the fun for everyone whether they be winner or loser...and it even ruins the fun for the mod. So really, I think no matter what choice I made, someone would still be unhappy with me.

Originally Posted by Gwath

Well, when I realized I was going to be leaving town, I decided the best thing I could do for my team was disappear without a word and get modfired after two days.

Yeah, that was part of the problem. I had to message Mac and Kath to find out what was going on, and they informed me Gwath was going away for a week, which meant missing three Days. I'm a pretty easygoing person who hates modfire in general (I only had it because so many players complain when others don't participate and disappear without a word). If someone told me they had to go away 2-3 Days for unavoidable reasons, but guaranteed me they would return, I probably would allow them to stay alive regardless of role (and if they didn't hold their promise and return by the specified Day, they'd be modfired). I thought I had stated this or something like it in the admin thread, but apparently not, so that's my fault. In the case of Gwath, I didn't have direct communication with him on the issue, so while I knew he'd be back after a certain time, since he probably would assume he was dead, I wasn't sure he'd actually return to the game. It was because I didn't have that direct communication or certainty of knowing, that I think I would've modfired had it not looked like all my baddies might be dead by the end of the following Day. And I'm glad he returned since I really would've had no choice but to modfire him if he didn't. I can understand the reasons why Gwath didn't want to publicly announce his absence, but for future reference, (for all players, not just Gwath) it's probably better to at least inform/discuss with your mod about any Days you might miss...rather than leaving them completely in the dark.

Originally Posted by Lommy

And you mutineers should have succeeded in sending in the kill ´cos then I would have made one save

Oh yeah, I forgot you had protected Rikae that Night. So even if the aggressors had sent in Rikae's name as planned, there would've still been no Night kill and Rikae still wouldn't have taken down Gwath.

Originally Posted by Mith

Only comment was that it would have been fairer if we had been told he would NOT be mod killed (which the rules provided for in exceptional cases) so perhaps he would have been considered sooner.

I was going to announce it and I'm sorry I didn't. I wrote up a post and everything, but at the last minute I decided not to submit it, worrying that the way I wrote the post may hint at Gwath possibly being innocent or guilty even if I tried to sound neutral.

Originally Posted by Boromir

Every game can't be thrilling, or down to the wire, and to try and create those types of games, when you punish the village for their good play (or reward the wolves for a mistake)...I'm sorry I don't agree with that.

I was never trying to punish the village and reward the wolves, and I'm sorry you think that. I never bent the rules for a mistake made by the wolves. The problem was that RL got in the way and it was unavoidable. I felt like the entire baddie team was being punished just because a couple of their mates couldn't participate and not for any actions of their own.

Originally Posted by Boromir

Why was Wilwa immediately removed from our count? That was the night the wolves didn't send in the kill...they made a mistake, they messed up, why did they get rewarded with Wilwa's removal? See what I mean? Mira and Gwath were given the chance to come back if they could, but Wilwa was removed right away.

The difference is that wilwa directly asked me to remove her from the game. Mira indirectly said it was okay if I modfired since she might or might not come back, but she wasn't asking for it. And Gwath definitely didn't ask for modfire. But if he had, or I knew for certain he wouldn't be coming back, I would have modfired him immediately, I assure you.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You made good decisions in hard situations making this game an unforgettable one - no matter who won or lost. And that I think is in the last stance the most important thing - that we have fun.

Definitely. Yes, it is nice to be able to take the credit for winning...but at the same time, it's not like I'm mailing brownies to the baddies for winning. In the end, winning or losing should not be all that important; it's really the experience that counts. There are some games from way way back that I have to double check on who actually won, because my experiences are more memorable. Of course there are a couple exceptions where winning is a big deal when you manage it under impossible circumstances; that is when victory is truly sweet. But that wasn't the case here. The innocents could've won, but victory would not feel nearly as sweet and memorable in this situation compared to other games. Plus, the experience wouldn't be memorable either because it would've been a dull game.

Anyway, I am grateful to see there are at least a few players who felt the game remained balanced in spite of everything...because I really do keep going back and forth on whether or not I made the right decision. While I would like to mod again, I'm not sure if I should bother. There was a point in this game where I was so frustrated with the situation at hand, I wanted to give up and quit....but apparently mods can't modfire themselves. I don't know if I can emotionally handle the pressure placed on a mod to create a flawless game enjoyed by everyone after now failing to do so twice. My whole goal in modding is to make sure everyone is entertained and having fun, regardless of results...and obviously that has not happened. Do other mods get frustrated like this? I'm doubtful since if that were so, no one would be modding. Either I must be very unlucky or I just suck as a mod. Anyway, if I do end up modding another game, I will definitely eliminate modfire since all it has done is screw with me. I no longer want to be held responsible for those who don't participate, because it's not my fault if they miss a vote or more.

Moving on, I do want to throw out credit where it's deserved:

Mac, what an excellent job you did, especially with Lommy on your tail which is never easy. You made my day with that ranger reveal. After awhile, I thought the Day would be a Mac lynchfest and that would've been quite dull. But then you not only spiced things up, but somehow managed to survive by the skin of your teeth and get Lommy lynched at literally the last minute of the Day. What great entertainment.

Kath, I thought you played quite smoothly and expected you to survive longer. I was rather surprised you suddenly became the lynch of the Day. It's a shame you had no real opportunity to defend yourself, but it is how it is.

Gwath, I'm so glad you came back and not only did you come back, but you came back stronger than ever. You played strategically well and innocently which is why you won. The performance you gave upon returning made up for any absence, in my opinion. It's for that reason I'm glad I didn't modfire you, because then none of us would've been able to see that performance and the game would've been cut short.

Sally, you were quite the co-conspirator. You made several believe you was in fact a mutineer and then that "confession" later on was much amusing. Excellent work.

Lommy, I must admire your boldness in this game. It may have gotten you lynched, but it also played a major role in taking down an aggressor. I can't recall ever seeing someone so boldly pursue a player and actually be right, so you really do deserve a prize for that.

Rikae: Okay, you may have hunted the ranger at first, but then you went on to hunt two aggressors and a co-conspirator. You were very accurate with your suspicions and it's just a shame you weren't able to die on a Night when you had chosen a baddie.

Greenie, I am sorry you were killed so early. I couldn't believe how lucky the aggressors were with their first Night choice, especially since you don't seem to die early in the game very much. I would've loved to see you play the spy for at least a little longer because it would've been interesting to see what later dreams you would've made.

To the newbies Annu and Inziladun (who while has played before, this is my first time seeing him) : You both did an excellent job playing and made a great contribution to the game. WW games aren't always easy for newbies to jump in, and this one had an extra challenge, but you handled it well. I hope to see you both continue WWing in the future.

Nogrod and Boromir, you made great ordos as always and I appreciate the heavy contribution you gave, even beyond death. Truly the game would have not been nearly as interesting without the two of you.

Nerwen, I don't at all envy the position you were put in. Being the ultimate decision-maker is a lot of pressure and even if you voted for the innocent, you still did a great job at handling the situation.

Izzy, I felt bad everyone seemed to assume you were a cobbler or mutineer. Maybe your style is a bit different, but it's entertaining and I enjoy it, so don't change. Often players get lynched because of playing style and while it does suck, at least the others will learn their lesson for next time they play with you.

[Nerwen]

Just checking in briefly- I'm currently somewhere with limted internet access- I just want to congratulate Gwath a second time. All that Day I had a nasty feeling that lynching Izzy was just too easy... but in the end I couldn't find any actual reason to vote him.

[satansaloser2005]

Can't stay long right now, but wanted to share a couple things.



So here's how my train of thought worked, right? Right.

I thought Nerwen was a wolf. To be more exact, I thought she was a wolf and had figured out my hint to the pack here, where I talked about rum and mentioned 'meat' and 'pies' quite a bit. And then I tried to hint back when I accused her based on her mention of a previous game, because, really, who takes me seriously? I figured I could get away with it and say "Yeah, gotcha, I'm on board" because my opinion generally isn't taken into account so I could send her a message and be safe but unfortunately she wasn't a wolf at all!


And Kath. Oh, Kath, I'm so sorry! I figured you were some sort of gifted (or even innocent, but either way) and the pack hadn't killed you for some reason. I know how dangerous you are when you're alive so I wanted you gone before you picked out a few baddies and- oh, wait....whoops....


Mac, you were excellent! I laughed so hard at your reveal (and subsequent reactions) that I about died. Oh, you're always so great. And poor Lommie, who had you pegged from more or less the beginning and no one really believed her!


K, will share more thoughts later but must dash. Well done all!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Just checking in briefly- I'm currently somewhere with limted internet access- I just want to congratulate Gwath a second time. All that Day I had a nasty feeling that lynching Izzy was just too easy... but in the end I couldn't find any actual reason to vote him.

They call me...Teflon Wolf.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

They call me...Teflon Wolf.

You owe me a new shirt, Gwath. I've got juice all over this one now.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

They call me...Teflon Wolf.

And an Instant Lynch Ordo... depends on the game.

[Gwathagor]

Yeah, I could start going by Insta-Lynch. It's funny if you know.

[satansaloser2005]

*snickers*

When I added you on facebook I totally thought it was a joke, by the way.


I just realized. Gwath, you're the only one left alive for once. How's it feel?

[Gwathagor]

Novel.

[Mithalwen]

I didn't not modfire just because Gwath was an aggressor, but because his death would've resulted in my game ending prematurely.

Fact is in this context Gwath was spared becasue he was a wolf. If he had been an ordo you would have modfired him because it wouldn't have ended the game. But obviously not your fault that everyone ignored or patronised me (growls at Nogrod).

I was going to announce it and I'm sorry I didn't. I wrote up a post and everything, but at the last minute I decided not to submit it, worrying that the way I wrote the post may hint at Gwath possibly being innocent or guilty even if I tried to sound neutral.




. Do other mods get frustrated like this?

Yes. Try having two whitewashes one in each direction then have your next game actively sabotaged by your players doing the ONE thing you asked them not to. I know I should go back and finish my narrations for my game but I am still somewhat dispirited six months on. So I doubt that I will mod again. And since most games seem to make my frustrated, unhappy or otherwise terminally grouchy I shall probably stop playing entirely.

I am sorry if you feel got at. I do understand the difficulties really it is just that I never had any hope of winning this game since it was so weighted against the ordos, to lose so narrowly is incredibly frustrating - added on the frustration of working blind for so long. But I know you can't predict every possible circumstance and must accept the divine right of mods to do as suits them.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But obviously not your fault that everyone ignored or patronised me (growls at Nogrod).

Hey!

Please Mith...

And since most games seem to make my frustrated, unhappy or otherwise terminally grouchy I shall probably stop playing entirely.

I am sorry if you feel got at. I do understand the difficulties really it is just that I never had any hope of winning this game since it was so weighted against the ordos, to lose so narrowly is incredibly frustrating - added on the frustration of working blind for so long.

Okay, because being blamed of it already, then let's do it - the patronizing I mean.

It's a game dear god. Yeah I was complaining a bit myself during the game as it looked totally impossible to actually deduce anything in there - but we made just great! So I don't see how someone can be upset with losing that kind of a game? Or losing a game in the first place (my complaints were not directed towards not being able to win, but not being able to play it using reasoning as the main tool). Being less result-oriented makes the game much more fun!

The only thing in werewolf that really annoys me is when I get killed on D/N 1-2. But that's only because I'm not able to play any more in that game.

[Boromir88]

The only thing in werewolf that really annoys me is when I get killed on D/N 1-2. But that's only because I'm not able to play any more in that game.~Nogrod

It's only a game Nogrod

I think this one players (myself included) got a bit more testy than normal, simply because of the nature of the suspicions.

If you think about it, in any game we lynch blindly. There really is no 'solid' evidence, because it relies completely on how people perceive it. How someone perceives why _____ was killed at Night, or how a bandwagon started. However, we are far more confident with our suspicions, because we can see "Well _____ lynched our Ranger," or "Kath's a wolf, let's see what she said about people."

The nature of this game, you could not do that. We could not see who died and what their role is, in the actual (physical) results that might not seem to be a big deal. We lynched 3 wolves and we supposedly were doing it blind. But emotionally (or mentally) it was a strain...you couldn't say "Nogrod led a bandwagon against an innocent McCaber, and didn't vote for Shasta." Well you could (obviously I did) but it didn't seem much, when you didn't know McCaber's or Shasta's role.

I can't say if it was a big disadvantage or an advantage for us, but I can say that probably caused the tense game late in the DLs. As we primarily had to rely on what people said, and how people acted/reacted throughout the entire game. It was like a game where every day was Day 1. That's not a bad thing, I think it was different and challenging at times, but it certainly made the game feel more personal, because we were suspecting people on their actions (which actions were "innocent" and which were not) and not because "you lynched 3 innocents and have been defending wolf-Mac all game." I think that just made this game feel more personal, not necessarily a bad thing, but it was easier to forget in this game, that it was well...just a game.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Hey!

Please Mith...

Or losing a game in the first place (my complaints were not directed towards not being able to win, but not being able to play it using reasoning as the main tool). .

A game I don't end up enjoying very often.

I suppose I do rather resent being told I am misguided ..and indeed everyone else being told I am misguided when I was right .. being suspected before I even posted.. ridiculous.

And if you aren't interested in winning there is no point in playing any game - Otherwise it is just wasting hours in a draughty library or cyber cafe being insulted by people you end up wanting to murder basically.

And yes I know I am a grouchy old bag...

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Mith

I am sorry if you feel got at. I do understand the difficulties really it is just that I never had any hope of winning this game since it was so weighted against the ordos, to lose so narrowly is incredibly frustrating - added on the frustration of working blind for so long. But I know you can't predict every possible circumstance and must accept the divine right of mods to do as suits them.

Okay, I get it. A lot of people felt this game was unbalanced from the get-go. But if so many felt this way before the game even started, why not speak up? I am only one person with one perspective. And unfortunately, I seem to see things much differently than others (and not just in WW). I wish it weren't so since it always seems to cause problems for me, but I can't change how I think as much as I may try. In this case, I actually felt the baddies were at a disadvantage since they couldn't stop the seer from revealing dreams. It was extremely lucky for them that they killed the seer immediately, and I didn't think that likely to occur. And then also the factor of having practically known innocents killed at Night still posting opinions could've made a huge disadvantage. But obviously everyone else saw it the complete opposite. If you guys thought it was so unbalanced, you should've said so. After all, I did say on the first post of the admin thread:

Originally Posted by me

I’m hoping it will work the way it is, but if anyone has a suggestion that could better balance the game, feel free to share and I’ll take it into consideration.

I know I see things differently which is why I'm open to suggestions. So yeah, I'm pretty irritated to hear complaints that the game was so unfair from the very beginning since it could've easily been fixed by someone saying something. Especially when it was indicated that someone should say something if the general opinion was leaning in that direction. :/

Originally Posted by Mith

And if you aren't interested in winning there is no point in playing any game

Well, of course everyone wants to win for their team; I agree it's not worth playing if you're not going to try. But I think what Nogrod was trying to say is that while everyone does want to win, it doesn't mean they have to be a sore loser when they don't. Because just as someone has to win every game, someone also has to lose. And if everyone who lost was bitter about it, then WW would be no fun and no one would want to play. I admit, I've had losses I've been quite frustrated about. In my early days of WWing, I found myself quite emotional about getting killed (especially since I couldn't seem to make it past Day 3), but over time I've learned to de-sensitize myself over these things. Yeah it can be frustrating, but it is just a game and not the end of the world, so you get over it and move on. I think every player has been frustrated with a WW game at one point or another. Simply the nature of the game can cause tension and emotions to run high. But as frustrated as we can get from time to time, I think the best thing we can do is try to keep that frustration in check and watch what we say so that there are no hurt feelings. Because when feelings are hurt, that's when a WW game goes sour.

And about not revealing roles...

I initially planned to leave the roles known, then after thinking about it, I decided against it. If the roles weren't kept secret, it'd be rather amusing to have baddies posting and messing with the innocents beyond death, though it'd probably get old real quick. Plus, if the dead baddies were known and the gifteds confirmed and able to reveal whatever along with known ordo innocents, it really would've been unfair for the baddies. The main experiment was to see how the dead would interact with the living and affect the game...and then to also see how players would suspect and vote without solid evidence. As frustrating as it may have been, I think it proved you don't necessarily need that solid evidence to come to conclusions, considering how accurate many of you were with your suspicions at one time or another.

[Mithalwen]

I was just trying to be honest about why I don't think I should play more - and this is a gradual realisation not the result of one game. I am probably over sensitive but on the other hand I am not at home when I play able to pop in now and then go off and make a cup of tea, read a book come back and see what is going on. I try and give as much time as I can wangle and often there is noone around... it is madness. Then you come back to find the place has gone mad while you are away. I end up playing catch up, trying to correct things someone accused me of in a previous day then seeming odd and defensive and then go throught he whole noone else around thing to then get accused of not participating properly.


I knew this game was going to be tough but I had played other games with no reveal (but not so many villains). It was more after we lost the seer that it seemed hopeless. I also expected that we might have used the double kill and frankly I think it was a major own goal that we didn't instead of lynching Mira (assuming she would have been modfired). Confirming that for instance that Greenie was the seer would have spared me for one wondering if Issy was right ...I wasn't a lot of time trying to convince myself that there was no plausible set of circumstances for Greenie to be bluffing.


I know that we signed up for the game as advertised and I don't have a problem with that really.

I do know that someone has to lose... usually that someone is me... ... I actually really suck most of the time at this. So its myself I am most frustrated with - first time for ages that my instincts have been right (post 868 inter alia) and pushing them might have made a difference ..though that might have been getting myself lynched:S Heigh ho..

Anyway sincere apologies for rambling miserably on...

[Boromir88]

Okay, I get it. A lot of people felt this game was unbalanced from the get-go. But if so many felt this way before the game even started, why not speak up?~Brinn

It came off as a new challenge, that's why I signed up when I really should have been working on my several assignments throughout the summer. You appealed to the Captain Kirk in me.

I don't know if I would have called it 'unbalanced,' because clearly had the wolves not gotten the seer right at the start, who knows how that would have effected the outcome? But, as an ordo, in this one, to do what I normally do was far more trying and challenging. That is why I went off early in the game about the minimal posting, and why I thought the mod-fire rule was there in the first place. It was simply impossible to do anything when people weren't posting. In a normal game, you always have the revealed roles, and kills, to fall back on, but this primarily relied on what people said and how they reacted...when you don't say anything, it's impossible to figure anything out.

And unfortunately, I seem to see things much differently than others (and not just in WW). I wish it weren't so since it always seems to cause problems for me, but I can't change how I think as much as I may try.

What good would it do anyone to have us all nod heads in agreement? It's good to have different perspective, and I don't mean to be a problem for you (or anyone) simply because we see things differently.

I know when Nerwen, Mith, and I were wolves in your last modded game, Nerwen had to leave unexpectedly and you switched Kitanna into a wolf for us, because you didn't think it was fair to us...I don't know what my partners, or anyone else said, but I did tell you I didn't want another wolf, I thought we could have managed without. In that situation, I think the majority agreed to give us another wolf, but I honestly believed we didn't deserve one.

You were faced with a similar dilemma here, and you stuck to what you honestly believed would be fair to everyone, if I was a wolf in this one, I probably would have disagreed with you again. That's not because I like causing you problems and trust me, the outcome did not sour the experience. That's simply because I wonder how much rope should the wolves be allowed, they win the majority of games because they start out with an advantage, and people might not think knowing who's who is not a big advantage (it probably isn't lots of things can have a much bigger effect who wins and loses), but the bottomline is that's why the wolves win the majority of games. That's just the basic nature of it, so I just disagree with any decision to further help them out, whether I'm a wolf or not.