A Face-palm for Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 07-01-2009, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, I wonder if the key for someone to "master" the Ring is in the Sammath Naur? Say, if Gandalf, or Saruman wanted to master the Ring, would they need to take it to the place where it was made, take it where the Ring's influence was at it's strongest, and not only 'mentally' overthrow the Ring, but physically then have to overthrow Sauron? Is this what Sauron feared as to why the Ring was in the Sammath Naur? Did he know a Hobbit possessed it, and if not did he fear whoever had it was going to try to master it and overthrow him?

If by 'mastering the Ring', you mean one has found strength and will enough to actively wield it, I'd think the location where one claimed it immaterial.
Of course, anyone who believes they have mastered the Ring is in fact mastered by it. The new Ring Lord would not actually have 'overthrown' anything, but rather the reverse.
As for Sauron physically confronting the Ring's claimant, I think that would naturally occur. There is a quote, from Letters I believe, which states if Sauron proved the loser in such a contest the effect would be the same as if it were destroyed: he could never regain it.

Boo Radley · 07-02-2009, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If by 'mastering the Ring', you mean one has found strength and will enough to actively wield it, I'd think the location where one claimed it immaterial.
Of course, anyone who believes they have mastered the Ring is in fact mastered by it. The new Ring Lord would not actually have 'overthrown' anything, but rather the reverse.
As for Sauron physically confronting the Ring's claimant, I think that would naturally occur. There is a quote, from Letters I believe, which states if Sauron proved the loser in such a contest the effect would be the same as if it were destroyed: he could never regain it.

Very good point, Inziladun.

I just wonder, the quote from Letters notwithstanding, just how Sauron could be defeated by anyone holding the Ring. The Ring was part of him.
Well... maybe... okay... I think I can see it. But, hey! it wouldn't matter, would it? Anyone who defeated Sauron with the Ring would just become a brand new Sauron. There's be a name change, and the packaging would be a bit different, but it'd be the same nastiness inside the box.

Eönwë · 07-02-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boo Radley

Very good point, Inziladun.

I just wonder, the quote from Letters notwithstanding, just how Sauron could be defeated by anyone holding the Ring. The Ring was part of him.
Well... maybe... okay... I think I can see it. But, hey! it wouldn't matter, would it? Anyone who defeated Sauron with the Ring would just become a brand new Sauron. There's be a name change, and the packaging would be a bit different, but it'd be the same nastiness inside the box.

Like when Gandalf says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandalf

I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.

Basically, in the same way that Olorin is no longer the second most important Istar, and so takes the place of Saruman, the new person who claimed the ring would be the Dark Lord in place of Sauron.

***Mithadan*** · 07-03-2009, 09:39 AM

Excellent thread Inziladun! This is a question that has nagged at me a bit, particularly where I am of the school that seeks to reconcile the internal consistency of the mythos when something that seems not to fit is found, rather than chalking it up to an error by the author.

Boromir88 refers to a statement which he could not locate that Sauron is considerably weaker in the Third Age. I have found the reference and will start there. Letter 183, in the note at the bottom of the page, states that Sauron "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." It may be that due to this loss of his native power and strength, Sauron assumed the Ring had been destroyed. It was not until the Ring later surfaced (literally, not just from the River Anduin, but also from the caverns under the Misty Mountains where Gollum had taken it) that the Ring "called" to its master, making him aware that it had not been destroyed. Alternatively, a simpler explanation may be that he learned of the Ring when Gollum attempted to find Bilbo and made his way to Mordor and was caught. In either event, Sauron knows the Ring still exists by the time of LoTR.

The interesting related question is why was Sauron's strength reduced at all. The Silmarillion states that the people of the Valar could "clothe" themselves in the form of the Children of Iluvatar or go unclothed " and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them". Their forms could be assumed and disgarded at will. Why then does the destruction of Sauron's form at the end of the Second Age so weaken him if it is a mere form?

Letter 156 states that the Istari, as a condition to their returning to Middle Earth, were required to not merely clothe themselves, but incarnate; to house their spirits in a physical body "capable of pain, and weariness... and of being 'killed'". But Sauron, at least in the Second Age, was not so incarnated. He could shift from form to form still. He takes up a "fair" form to deceive the Elves of Hollin and again to deceive and corrupt the Numenoreans. The Akallabeth relates that "Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of the shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep... until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible..." It did not take long for him to create this new "guise". Yet when he is "slain" at the end of the seige of Mordor, it takes him a thousand years to take up a new form.

It is likely this weakness and loss of power that led Sauron to conclude that the Ring, which contained much of his strength, had been destroyed and, of course, this is what should have happened and if roles were reversed, Sauron would have destroyed the Ring. This interpretation makes "sense" and would be logical to Sauron's mind (and Gandalf comments that Sauron was analytical and logical at least to his own mind; "wise fool"). But Sauron was deceived. The "slaying" of a form of the people of the Valar almost never happened. So Sauron may not have realized the extent of the effect of the loss of a form (or body, by the end of the Second Age, he may have been incarnated).

Going to Letter 200, Tolkien relates that Sauron was always "de-bodied" when he was vanquished. Sauron's shape "was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms." Tolkien explains that it took longer for Sauron to rebuild his body/form after the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil "because each building-up used some of the inherent energy of the spirit..."

It appears that the drastic difference between the loss of his native power after the Fall of Numenor and after his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance may have been what tricked Sauron into believing that the Ring had been destroyed. A discussion for another day, and it may be question that cannot be answered, is whether there is a difference between the destruction the "form" in which a Vala/Maia is "clothed", and the destruction of a "body" in which a Vala/Maia is incarnated, and if there is a difference then why was Sauron incarnated?

Boromir88 · 07-03-2009, 11:03 AM

Mithadan, nice post, and what I was referring to about Sauron losing part of his power with each rebuilding was from Letter 200

Quote:

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'

Gwath thanks. I think it's interesting to consider because when you read the chapter Mount Doom, I mean moments before Frodo goes into the Sammath Naur he is completely drained of strength, Sam is having to carry him. Then suddenly he gets this spurt of energy which allows him to fight Gollum, and get into the Sammath Naur...it's just curious trying to figure out why Frodo suddenly had this 'energy.'

Also, during this time Frodo says some strange statements, where the reader can't tell whether it is Frodo or the Ring talking, it's like they are now indistinguishable, and the Ring needed to get Frodo to the Sammath Naur, where it's power and influence was at the maximum.

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-03-2009, 11:59 AM

Just one thought concerning Frodo's sudden energy spurt at the end:

In the chapter "Mount Doom" we read:

Quote:

This was probably the only thing that could have roused the dying embers of Frodo's heart and will: an attack, an attempt to wrest his treasure from him by force.

Though Tolkien does not use the word, I think we clearly see the effect of adrenalin here, giving that extra bit of power in a desperate situation. I can vaguely remember a discussion on this once, but don't know where it's buried.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 08-04-2009, 11:31 AM

Lurking through the thread for a few days now as I admit this is something of a puzzle I'd never considered before (thanks Inziladun). And it's come to me that I've been misunderstanding Sauron all along. He does not have mastery over the Ring but has been mastered by it just like Gollum, Isildur, Frodo, Bilbo and everyone else who comes into contact with it (imagined or otherwise: e.g. Gandalf and Galadriel). Now, I know he's the Master of the Ring but that's a title which I think means he is the maker and 'proper' holder of the Ring but he's clearly not the master of it in the way that Tom Bombadil is master.

How'd I get to this? Because it's clear to me that the Ring has fooled Sauron as badly as it fools everyone else. Sauron obviously thought that the Ring could be destroyed and he would remain potent--he was even still able to control the Nazgul and he thought the Ring was destroyed; he was clearly not seeing very clearly if he thought he could, alone and naked, control the Nine when the One was undone. He believed, quite foolishly, that he was in charge and that it was his will alone and unsupported that was ordering events. This is the seductive whispering of the Ring: that you can use its power to fulfil your will and not its own. We see it time and again, promising people the fulfilment of their will, cloaked in the promise that they will be master, not-mastered (Boromir can save Minas Tirith and be a Captain, Gollum can have fish served to him all day and be The Gollum, Bilbo can outlive any other Hobbit, Sam can be the Gardener of Middle-Earth (and tangentially I would add a mystery I've thought of many times here on the Downs...what does the Ring offer Frodo? We are never told...)).

So now I'm wondering if some part of Sauron might have even been grateful to Frodo after the destruction of the Ring. Gandalf says that nothing was created evil and to me, at least, it's pretty clear that nobody is entirely beyond redemption. So in that moment when the Ring is gone, and Sauron realises the full extent of his folly to have believed that he was master when all along he'd been slave, is it impossible to imagine some small shred of him remembering the light of Valinor and feeling gratitude to the hobbits who have saved him???

07-03-2009, 09:39 AM	#4
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,394	Excellent thread Inziladun! This is a question that has nagged at me a bit, particularly where I am of the school that seeks to reconcile the internal consistency of the mythos when something that seems not to fit is found, rather than chalking it up to an error by the author. Boromir88 refers to a statement which he could not locate that Sauron is considerably weaker in the Third Age. I have found the reference and will start there. Letter 183, in the note at the bottom of the page, states that Sauron "By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." It may be that due to this loss of his native power and strength, Sauron assumed the Ring had been destroyed. It was not until the Ring later surfaced (literally, not just from the River Anduin, but also from the caverns under the Misty Mountains where Gollum had taken it) that the Ring "called" to its master, making him aware that it had not been destroyed. Alternatively, a simpler explanation may be that he learned of the Ring when Gollum attempted to find Bilbo and made his way to Mordor and was caught. In either event, Sauron knows the Ring still exists by the time of LoTR. The interesting related question is why was Sauron's strength reduced at all. The Silmarillion states that the people of the Valar could "clothe" themselves in the form of the Children of Iluvatar or go unclothed " and then even the Eldar cannot clearly perceive them". Their forms could be assumed and disgarded at will. Why then does the destruction of Sauron's form at the end of the Second Age so weaken him if it is a mere form? Letter 156 states that the Istari, as a condition to their returning to Middle Earth, were required to not merely clothe themselves, but incarnate; to house their spirits in a physical body "capable of pain, and weariness... and of being 'killed'". But Sauron, at least in the Second Age, was not so incarnated. He could shift from form to form still. He takes up a "fair" form to deceive the Elves of Hollin and again to deceive and corrupt the Numenoreans. The Akallabeth relates that "Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of the shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep... until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible..." It did not take long for him to create this new "guise". Yet when he is "slain" at the end of the seige of Mordor, it takes him a thousand years to take up a new form. It is likely this weakness and loss of power that led Sauron to conclude that the Ring, which contained much of his strength, had been destroyed and, of course, this is what should have happened and if roles were reversed, Sauron would have destroyed the Ring. This interpretation makes "sense" and would be logical to Sauron's mind (and Gandalf comments that Sauron was analytical and logical at least to his own mind; "wise fool"). But Sauron was deceived. The "slaying" of a form of the people of the Valar almost never happened. So Sauron may not have realized the extent of the effect of the loss of a form (or body, by the end of the Second Age, he may have been incarnated). Going to Letter 200, Tolkien relates that Sauron was always "de-bodied" when he was vanquished. Sauron's shape "was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms." Tolkien explains that it took longer for Sauron to rebuild his body/form after the battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil "because each building-up used some of the inherent energy of the spirit..." It appears that the drastic difference between the loss of his native power after the Fall of Numenor and after his defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance may have been what tricked Sauron into believing that the Ring had been destroyed. A discussion for another day, and it may be question that cannot be answered, is whether there is a difference between the destruction the "form" in which a Vala/Maia is "clothed", and the destruction of a "body" in which a Vala/Maia is incarnated, and if there is a difference then why was Sauron incarnated? __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

08-04-2009, 11:31 AM	#7
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Lurking through the thread for a few days now as I admit this is something of a puzzle I'd never considered before (thanks Inziladun). And it's come to me that I've been misunderstanding Sauron all along. He does not have mastery over the Ring but has been mastered by it just like Gollum, Isildur, Frodo, Bilbo and everyone else who comes into contact with it (imagined or otherwise: e.g. Gandalf and Galadriel). Now, I know he's the Master of the Ring but that's a title which I think means he is the maker and 'proper' holder of the Ring but he's clearly not the master of it in the way that Tom Bombadil is master. How'd I get to this? Because it's clear to me that the Ring has fooled Sauron as badly as it fools everyone else. Sauron obviously thought that the Ring could be destroyed and he would remain potent--he was even still able to control the Nazgul and he thought the Ring was destroyed; he was clearly not seeing very clearly if he thought he could, alone and naked, control the Nine when the One was undone. He believed, quite foolishly, that he was in charge and that it was his will alone and unsupported that was ordering events. This is the seductive whispering of the Ring: that you can use its power to fulfil your will and not its own. We see it time and again, promising people the fulfilment of their will, cloaked in the promise that they will be master, not-mastered (Boromir can save Minas Tirith and be a Captain, Gollum can have fish served to him all day and be The Gollum, Bilbo can outlive any other Hobbit, Sam can be the Gardener of Middle-Earth (and tangentially I would add a mystery I've thought of many times here on the Downs...what does the Ring offer Frodo? We are never told...)). So now I'm wondering if some part of Sauron might have even been grateful to Frodo after the destruction of the Ring. Gandalf says that nothing was created evil and to me, at least, it's pretty clear that nobody is entirely beyond redemption. So in that moment when the Ring is gone, and Sauron realises the full extent of his folly to have believed that he was master when all along he'd been slave, is it impossible to imagine some small shred of him remembering the light of Valinor and feeling gratitude to the hobbits who have saved him??? __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.