Contradictory Descriptions of the Black Gate. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-26-2009, 10:09 AM

However, it might have been a compound arch- a very typical feature of large medieval buildings. In other words, three individual gate-arches within one overall arch: the smaller arches support the weight of the infill underneath the main arch, a "relieving arch," which sustains the weight of the wall above.

A two-opening example (windows, not doors):

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/25630...drewmutton.jpg

narfforc · 06-27-2009, 04:59 AM

Cirith Gorgor was the pass into Mordor that the Morannon was built across. The Two Towers of the Teeth were on either side and The Black Gate Admidmost. I have 66 copies of The Lord of the Rings, I will have to check every copy at somestage. However having checked the second edition (the oldest I have), and two others (Unwin Books 74 and the 50th edition Harper Collins), they state that there are TWO vast doors. I have both the Ballantine and Ace copies, and they state THREE vast doors. Robert Foster's Guide states THREE doors also, so something is plainly wrong.

P.S I have just read on and seen a bit of editing going on. The Second Edition and the Unwin book states that The Mouth of Sauron comes from the middle door "And thereupon the middle door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". This changes in the 50th Edition Harper Collins to "And thereupon the door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". The Ace and Balantine copies go with the first statement.

narfforc · 06-27-2009, 07:25 AM

I decided to get out Hammond and Scull's Readers Companion and here is what it says:-

The two vast iron doors of the Black Gate under its frowning arch were fast closed.-As first published this sentence read: 'The three vast doors of the Black Gate under their frowning arches were fast closed'. It was revised in the second printing (1967) of the Allen and Unwin second Edition, to accord with the description of a single gate in Book IV, Chapter 3.

the door of The Black Gate-Prior to the Houghton Mifflin edition of 1987 and HarperCollins edition of 1994, these words read 'the middle door of the Black Gate'

I hope this helps.

JeffF. · 06-28-2009, 08:00 AM

I see. the mystery of the door is that there is none, it's just a typo.

I have the hardback editions but never knew there were differences in the text.

thanks

narfforc · 06-30-2009, 07:07 AM

As a matter of interest JeffF, how old are the books you are quoting from, and have you read only those copies?.

JeffF. · 06-30-2009, 10:28 AM

I do my research with my 1973 Ballantine paperbacks (the set with the original Tolkien art on the covers) because I heavily highlight (with a color code for different types of information no less!) and I write notes in the margins. I've owned different hardback sets but since my wife bought me the single volume beautiful red (fake) leather bound edition with the similar green The Hobbit I've kept only those hardbacks.

In fact I'm on my third set of the 1973 paperbacks, as they wear and tear I buy an identical set from a used book store and meticulously copy my previous highlights and notes on the appropriate pages. I even have a pristeen set unmarked and carefully stored in case I am no longer able to find them.

I do read my beautiful hardbacks but carefully and sparingly. For my purposes (which you can tell from my posts) and interests which are almost wholly the military aspect of LotR these books are fine.

Gwathagor · 07-01-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

I have 66 copies of The Lord of the Rings

HOLY - !!!

narfforc · 07-02-2009, 04:37 AM

They are all different, honest...

narfforc · 07-03-2009, 03:32 PM

It would interesting to know how long it took for this editing to reach other countries and translations.

LadyBrooke · 07-04-2009, 05:49 PM

I'm not an expert on translations by any means, but my understanding is that in some situations book publishers are given a certain edition to work from and that is the only one they may translate from. I have no way of knowing if this is the case for LotR, but if it is narfforc corrections may not make it in to the foreign editions at all. Knowing how picky J.R.R. was about his work I doubt that he would keep anybody from making corrections, though.

06-26-2009, 10:09 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	However, it might have been a compound arch- a very typical feature of large medieval buildings. In other words, three individual gate-arches within one overall arch: the smaller arches support the weight of the infill underneath the main arch, a "relieving arch," which sustains the weight of the wall above. A two-opening example (windows, not doors): http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/25630...drewmutton.jpg __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 06-26-2009 at 10:18 AM.

06-27-2009, 04:59 AM	#2
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	Cirith Gorgor was the pass into Mordor that the Morannon was built across. The Two Towers of the Teeth were on either side and The Black Gate Admidmost. I have 66 copies of The Lord of the Rings, I will have to check every copy at somestage. However having checked the second edition (the oldest I have), and two others (Unwin Books 74 and the 50th edition Harper Collins), they state that there are TWO vast doors. I have both the Ballantine and Ace copies, and they state THREE vast doors. Robert Foster's Guide states THREE doors also, so something is plainly wrong. P.S I have just read on and seen a bit of editing going on. The Second Edition and the Unwin book states that The Mouth of Sauron comes from the middle door "And thereupon the middle door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". This changes in the 50th Edition Harper Collins to "And thereupon the door of the Black Gate was thrown open with a great clang". The Ace and Balantine copies go with the first statement. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 06-27-2009 at 05:13 AM.

06-27-2009, 07:25 AM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	I decided to get out Hammond and Scull's Readers Companion and here is what it says:- The two vast iron doors of the Black Gate under its frowning arch were fast closed.-As first published this sentence read: 'The three vast doors of the Black Gate under their frowning arches were fast closed'. It was revised in the second printing (1967) of the Allen and Unwin second Edition, to accord with the description of a single gate in Book IV, Chapter 3. the door of The Black Gate-Prior to the Houghton Mifflin edition of 1987 and HarperCollins edition of 1994, these words read 'the middle door of the Black Gate' I hope this helps. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

06-28-2009, 08:00 AM	#4
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	No mystery I see. the mystery of the door is that there is none, it's just a typo. I have the hardback editions but never knew there were differences in the text. thanks __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)

06-30-2009, 07:07 AM	#5
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	As a matter of interest JeffF, how old are the books you are quoting from, and have you read only those copies?. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

06-30-2009, 10:28 AM	#6
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	My Books I do my research with my 1973 Ballantine paperbacks (the set with the original Tolkien art on the covers) because I heavily highlight (with a color code for different types of information no less!) and I write notes in the margins. I've owned different hardback sets but since my wife bought me the single volume beautiful red (fake) leather bound edition with the similar green The Hobbit I've kept only those hardbacks. In fact I'm on my third set of the 1973 paperbacks, as they wear and tear I buy an identical set from a used book store and meticulously copy my previous highlights and notes on the appropriate pages. I even have a pristeen set unmarked and carefully stored in case I am no longer able to find them. I do read my beautiful hardbacks but carefully and sparingly. For my purposes (which you can tell from my posts) and interests which are almost wholly the military aspect of LotR these books are fine. __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)

07-02-2009, 04:37 AM	#8
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	They are all different, honest... __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

07-03-2009, 03:32 PM	#9
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	It would interesting to know how long it took for this editing to reach other countries and translations. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.

07-04-2009, 05:49 PM	#10
LadyBrooke Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The modern day version of Edoras: horses, wind, rolling plains =) Posts: 507	I'm not an expert on translations by any means, but my understanding is that in some situations book publishers are given a certain edition to work from and that is the only one they may translate from. I have no way of knowing if this is the case for LotR, but if it is narfforc corrections may not make it in to the foreign editions at all. Knowing how picky J.R.R. was about his work I doubt that he would keep anybody from making corrections, though. __________________ Busy, Busy, Busy...hoping for more free time soon.