WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[Thinlómien]

++Macalaure

I'll be blunt. I want to vote before the bandwagons begin because of the simple reason that I feel that Mac is a mutineer and all the other mutineers know it and the cobblers guess it and they are just ignoring my case and I'm just fighting the windmills here... and if I vote late there will be no one to vote him with me. *shrugs*

My vote is liable to change if my case/research/whatever I'm going to do makes me think Mac is innocent after all.

Now, I'm off to comment everything that happened while I was away and then I'll make the long-awaited Mac-post.

[Thinlómien]

I think I'm mistaken about someone else, Kath seems pretty fine to me. *moves her from the "wary of" category to the "neutral" category*

Inzil - I got why Gwath is not a mutineer, but I still didn't get why he's a co-consp and not an ordo, for example.

Sally makes me wonder. Is she innocent after all since she's trying to help us, or is she just trying to play innocent? Gah. With all respect, Brinn, I hate this game.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just a moment... "pretending to be sensible"?

Speaking in a reasonable tone but suggesting stupid stuff.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But no, I didn't suggest Greenie-lynch unless it would be a double-lynch - and Sally already corrected me with the "no double-lynch" -policies of the game. Go back and see for yourself. I said lynching ghosts is not the way to go unless they are double-lynches (regretably not an option I see now).

Okay I misunderstood then because it didn't occur to me you could mean traditional double-lynches with the word double-lynch since there aren't any in this game. And how many times do I have to repeat that lynching Greenie would be utter foolishness? We wouldn't gain anything except for a known innocent we semi-have already or get rid of a rather inactive dead cobbler AND we would reveal to the baddies whether the seer is still alive or not. Not wise at all.

Originally Posted by Sally to Rikae

By the way, why are you now green?

Oh but she's just a little green.

Originally Posted by Shasta whose vileness is pardoned ;)

Oh? Really, Lommy? Is that what happened?

Okay I read this as advocating lynching her (looks like you're still for lynching her later, or?)

Originally Posted by Shasta

There are, of course, pros and cons to any plan. In hindsight, maybe we should wait to lynch A Little Green Ghost if and until we have a competing Seer-claim. I just intensely dislike having no concrete information whatsoever on which to base any decision. The most concrete evidence right now that I can see is that it's possible someone who was inactive or not here for some reason might be responsible for last night's no kill, but that's really close to metagaming and makes me uncomfortable.

And I'm getting rather cranky because I feel we're losing this game and I can do nothing to change it... grrr Macalaure I'm going to reveal all your dirty secrets now!


xed with 2x Kath & 1x Izzie

[A Little Green]

It's well past bedtime for this little (green) ghost.. Just a few thoughts, however, before I go to sleep and leave you to vote.

Originally Posted by Kath

I don't know what to do about Gwath. I am always tempted if we do have a modfire going on to vote for that person in order that we don't end up with two people dying on one Day.

Honestly now, we (or rather, you) can't afford another Mira! If those pessimistic scenarios are true we really need to get a mutineer toDay. I can understand "abstaining" from a lynch by lynching someone who is going to be modfired anyway if the village (or ship, arr!) is on an early stage and there are no good cases against anyone else. This late in a game, however, I think an abstain is about the worst choice there is. If you are determined not to lynch anyone, at least lynch a ghost and get us some info. Lynching a modfirée ( what a word!) wins us nothing.

I think it might be wisest to actually try a good ol' lynch. Like Nogrod enjoys reminding us, it is the only weapon we have, and we have already wasted it once.

I had something else I wanted to say as well but forgot it.

[A Little Green]

Lommy's Mac obsession looks like a fanatic innocent. Izzy is acting more cobblerish than ever. Mith seems ok.

Sally puzzles me a lot. Something in her tone when she said "Double-lynching me would be a waste" or something like that seemed to me as if she actually wanted to be lynched a second time. I don't know if I'm making any sense, probably not. Why would anyone want to be double-lynched, unless a) she's a cobbler who wants the village to waste a lynch or b) she's a mutineer who thinks the same and believes she has left no trail.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Kath

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer? Can see your reasoning about the others but clearly missed that somewhere along the way. Thinks Gwath might be a mutineer.

I believe it's because Eomer was Night-killed.

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.


EDIT: Heey I'm triple-posting! Where is everyone?

[Thinlómien]

Alright then. I didn't use to pay much attention to Mac. I doubt anyone was. He was kind of staying in the background, making jokes, being nice, offering facts and maths. Being present but not too noticed. Exactly the position a wolf would like to have, may I say.

Then, I started thinking "all veteran loudmouths can't be innocent". A questionable statement, I know, and I won't discuss it further again. But what is important that thinking about it I was lead to thinking about Mac and realised I hadn't paid him almost any attention at all. He was hiding successfully.

I saw a few of his posts. What was he doing? Agreeing with people, especially Rikae the known Hunter and the known Macalaure-knower. I was like "arr he's just trying to avoid her attention and goes with the flow". I told him this. He pleasantly admitted it (that's what person of any role could do) and insisted he had added some points about people's activity. (Really Mac, can't you think of anything else? ) And then he retaliated by (carefully friendlily jokingly) accusing me of being generic in return. Not too innocent especially as he was kindly not really suspecting me in return. (That was like "oh yes I'm a big mighty wolf you can throw your petty suspicions at my direction but I won't mind we can still be friends before I eat you".)

I accused him of agreeing with people too much and what does he say? "I disagreed with Nogrod on Day1." Go Mac, that was pretty pitiful. And then he's just being a tad too easy and non-defensive to really be innocent. An innocent would be more on guard about attacks against him because he would be annoyed by their untruthfulness.

I don't like his quarrel with Boro. It hardly looks like both of them are innocent. And I happen to consider Boro rather innocent, so that's one more point against Mac. (Off-topic, if Boro is really evil - a cobbler doesn't count - I'll never trust him again.)

Then, the critical point.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Mac, explain to me why your general blandness and lack of opinions in this game does not mean you're a wolf. *taps toe*

No one can honestly say that's not wolvish. Really, the way he takes it so jokingly and easily and smoothly just sets all my radars beeping. This is not helped at all by the fact that Rikae says that that is exactly the kind of thing Mac would say to her as a wolf. And what about his next reaction - pretending he doesn't get it or gets sceptic:

Originally Posted by Mac

Okaaaay...
If you expected me to throw out some suspicion at you in turn, I might have - if you were not a semi-known innocent.

Eeee this is not a point against Mac but if he's a mutineer, then it would be worth looking at Shasta and Sally(/Gwath):

Originally Posted by Mac

Since Gwath and Sally are missing, it's almost entirely up to you now, Shasta.

ToDay, nothing special. Except that I think he'd be a tad more aggressive and defensive than he is now if he was innocent. The innocent seldom have such ever-lasting patience and joking mood he's displaying.

LYNCH HIM I say. I have nothing to add in his defense except two things - he's not the likeliest of us to miss a kill accidentally and he was taking a huge risk by attacking Rikae who threatened to hunt him but then again he knows her better than any of us others so he would've been able to judge better if she was serious or not.


edit: xed with Greenie - arr I really don't want patting on the head or being called an innocent fanatic and ignored I want Macalaure to be lynched 'cos if he's not evil I'll eat my head! Seriously. I just think my obsession isn't doing any good to my case.

[A Little Green]

Hmmm. I agree that information would be goooood but is it so good that it's worth missing a lynch? I'm not sure. If that information leads to a successful lynch toMorrow it's worth the miss toDay. What worries me is the possibility that it doesn't. If it doesn't, we have lost another chance to get a baddie.


EDIT: 500th post! Party party! And good night.

[Boromir88]

Speaking of tone, let's tone it down a bit. We don't know the situation we're in, how many wolves are left, how many cobblers.

Izzy, we go by what people say. I know it's frustrating to have people twist what you're saying, or just automatically start making assumptions, but that's how this thing works. All you can do is keep trying and keep helping. If some say you're the cobbler they most likely have good reason to believe it, unless they're a mutineer that's trying to look for someone we can lynch. If you are the cobbler, than I have no qualms about saying you are, because that's the purpose, that's what we have to do. If you aren't, than I'm wrong, and you can imagine me eating a shoe when this is all over.

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault. Let's see what you have on Mac.

And now I'm going to flip on my Mira stance before, and agree with Greenie (which means I guess I'm agreeing with Mac too ). But I think it's time we get someone's role.

++Nogrod

If anyone else thinks there would be a more sensible, or informational choice, I'm all ears.

Edit: crossed with Lommy, who laid out her Mac reasons already

[Boromir88]

(Off-topic, if Boro is really evil - a cobbler doesn't count - I'll never trust him again.)
~Lommy

If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Speaking of tone, let's tone it down a bit. We don't know the situation we're in, how many wolves are left, how many cobblers.

Izzy, we go by what people say. I know it's frustrating to have people twist what you're saying, or just automatically start making assumptions, but that's how this thing works. All you can do is keep trying and keep helping. If some say you're the cobbler they most likely have good reason to believe it, unless they're a mutineer that's trying to look for someone we can lynch. If you are the cobbler, than I have no qualms about saying you are, because that's the purpose, that's what we have to do. If you aren't, than I'm wrong, and you can imagine me eating a shoe when this is all over.

Oh really?!

[Boromir88]

Yes "we" sally, "we" have to take what people say and lynch wolves and cobblers, I know the concept of "we" is entirely foreign to you mutineers and cobblers.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lommy

-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
LYNCH HIM!

Originally Posted by Rikae

Mac

KILL KILL KILL

Mac ~ *RAISES EYEBROW*

I have to say that the way the suspicion level against Kath has been carefully and continuously raised just before she came back is rather suspicious. Lommy, Rikae, Sally... unfortunately only one of those is even alive anymore. Talking of which:

Originally Posted by Kath

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer?

Because he was killed by the mutineers?

Originally Posted by Kath

I said before that the fighting between Boro and Mac was quite likely to mean one of them was a wolf. I don't know which. To be on the opposite side of the fence to Lommy, given that Rikae was suspicious of Mac before she was killed it would seem to put him in a better light. Yet Boro doesn't seem suspicious. I guess by elimination and by the fact that I do believe Mac might be a bold enough wolf to kill Rikae knowing he might go down with her I'd probably vote for him. That said, I am more inclined to vote Gwath because of the modfire.

What you said up there made sense til here. You say you said before that Boro or me are a mutineer - where? I checked, but I must've missed that. Is your only actual reason to think I'm evil that I could be bold enough to? That's a ridiculous reason!
Also, the modfire is, I believe, a reason not to vote Gwath.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Also, the modfire is, I believe, a reason not to vote Gwath.

Hey, for once we agree. It is indeed ridiculous to vote him if he's to be modfired (I was supposed to comment on that but I forgot). We don't want to waste another chance.

[Macalaure]

I thought I'd better start a new post to reply to Lommy's big post about me. I expected to see some good points that I'd have to concede, plenty of bad points that I'd have to defend myself against. Instead, I would have to array one quote after the other and comment each with "what the heck?".

Seriously, Lommy, you're as far off as one can be.


Oh, darnit, let's try it anyway (all quotes by you-know-who)...

He pleasantly admitted it (that's what person of any role could do) and insisted he had added some points about people's activity.

For the love of... I made a list and you accused me of just agreeing in it. I definitely wasn't, and proved it by telling you that I considered ideas in there that nobody else had considered. Savvy?

And then he retaliated by (carefully friendlily jokingly) accusing me of being generic in return. Not too innocent especially as he was kindly not really suspecting me in return.

I retaliated with friendliness? Oh noes!!

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.

I accused him of agreeing with people too much and what does he say? "I disagreed with Nogrod on Day1."

That was not all I said, and you know it! Tell me how an innocent can quote this way to make her points?

An innocent would be more on guard about attacks against him because he would be annoyed by their untruthfulness.

But there was no untruthfulness in your attacks so far. There was nothing in your attacks so far. And that was exactly what I criticised.

I don't like his quarrel with Boro. It hardly looks like both of them are innocent.

This is another quite popular statement right now - one that nobody actually bothered to give reasons for. Parrots!

No one can honestly say that's not wolvish. Really, the way he takes it so jokingly and easily and smoothly just sets all my radars beeping.

Inconceivable! I replied jokingly to a joking accusation! String me up, please!


Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.

Let's read some more...

[Thinlómien]

Boro, why Nogrod? He wasn't lynched, so he wasn't argued for and against, and he was only around for Day1 and beginning of the Day2. So not much data. I think it'd be more informative to re-lynch Sally. But I still don't think we can afford lynching a ghost (not as long as Mac lives ).

Originally Posted by Boro

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault.

Thanks, Mr Psychologist, but I'm always personally annoyed if I'm pretty sure I'm right and the village loses because they don't listen to me.

Originally Posted by Boro

If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's a little bit presumptuous. You never know- they may have killed one of their own to mislead us on purpose. Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide? And Eönwë, I think a dead mutineer wouldn't be allowed to communicate with the pack (and dead gifted aren't allowed to work either).

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt.


edit: x'ed with Boro

[Boromir88]

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt~Lommy

*headdesks*

No I want a double-killing to find out someone's role! This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

But, I will be honest with you...I only want to find out Nogrod, to pad my own confidence you might say. It's really selfish, because I haven't considered what info we'd get, whether he is innocent or not, I just want to know if I've pegged him correctly.

I said I'm open ears, and that means ghosting someone...but I want to try and see where we stand, get some sort of information, just try to find out something for certain for pete's sake.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right? ~Lommy

Sure, but bear in mind you would only be allowed to use that once when you're evil...after that you'll have to get something better.

[Thinlómien]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest, and I understand your feelings well (but I still think Sally was more probably a mutineer). But I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead. (Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

[Nogrod]

Last Night there was a hunter in action. It was either Rikae or me killing the other. Well, it was Rikae who killed me. Had it been otherwise, I would be the hunter and I would have no reason to lie you about it.

I know I'm innocent - and a bit frustrated one because of the way I died - but you have no way to know it. Fine and dandy.

I do think you'll waste your lynch on me but if you wish, go ahead. I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).

But you guys lynched Mira already when there would have been a chance to lynch a mutineer. Now let's be as rational as we can in these circumstances!

And who was behind these ideas (to lynch Mira and to lynch a ghost instead of a possible mutineer - mutineer-ghosts are dead anyway)? Boro...

Originally Posted by Greenie

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.

Exactly my thoughts! I'm not liking the way this thing is heading towards...


But from my position of a ghost I can safely take the other point of view as well, one I had totally forgotten as I was not around when it happened... I heard about it but forgot it until these latest discussions.

So the mutineers missed a kill! Well that is interesting and would basically rule out all the US. veterans (DL is just too nice for them and they would take care personally a kill was sent in time). But it could imply some un-orderedness among the mutineers - or which would be even better: low numbers!

Hmm... Food for thought. If that interpretation is correct you should go for those less experienced and scarcely on-line people... if not, then you have a galley (sic!) of suspects: Boro, Mac, Lommy, Mith, Kath...


But before we have shared thoughts about these two very different interpretations of the situation I could have proposed lynching Boro, if there was not this:

Originally Posted by Boro

This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

Most of what he's said has sounded like evil to my ears this far but this looks like pure innocent-thinking... Okay Boro could think this and perform it even if a wolf, but it's so much easier to think as an innocent what a wolf might do than to actually do things as a wolf (I know, I've been a wolf enough many times).

Sadly I'm not ready to give him the green card as yet either as how he explained that quote looked a bit fishy.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide?

Just because it's never happened in a game that I've been in, it doesn't mean its not allowed. That's why I wanted to know