Sympathy for the Devil?

[Mithadan]

Regarding the question of whether Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor, there is a nice thread from some years back on this issue (in which I made many of the same arguments raised here by Gordis ). This thread can be found at the following link: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...n+numenor+ring.

To put that thread in context, that discussion arose at around the time when various members were debating the relative "reliability" of sources outside the primary works (such as Letters, HoME, Unfinished Tales and even whether the Silmarillion should be considered a "primary work"). While the letter quoted by Gordis and the other letter quoted in the linked thread seem absolute, there is some text that suggests or implies that Sauron did not take the Ring with him to Numenor, and there exist valid arguments that this was the case if one chooses to discount the letters.

[Gordis]

On a side-issue here:

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Regarding the question of whether Sauron had the Ring with him in Numenor, there is a nice thread from some years back on this issue (in which I made many of the same arguments raised here by Gordis ). This thread can be found at the following link: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...n+numenor+ring.

To put that thread in context, that discussion arose at around the time when various members were debating the relative "reliability" of sources outside the primary works (such as Letters, HoME, Unfinished Tales and even whether the Silmarillion should be considered a "primary work"). While the letter quoted by Gordis and the other letter quoted in the linked thread seem absolute, there is some text that suggests or implies that Sauron did not take the Ring with him to Numenor, and there exist valid arguments that this was the case if one chooses to discount the letters.

Thanks for the link.
I think nobody has the right to disregard the clear statement in the Letters, especially when (IMO) it doesn't really contradict the text of "the Rings of Power and the Third Age": "He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power"
Sauron carried the Ring back to ME in spirit-form: he could carry it, but nor wield. He had to make himself a new body with a new finger before taking up the Ring again and starting to wield it. It took him about 100 years with the Ring in his possession.

Also nobody in this thread questioned the loyalty of the Ulairi, whether they could be trusted to guard the One back at the end of the SA or not. Some quoted UT, "the Hunt for the Ring," forgetting that the reason why Sauron could trust the Nazgul an Age later -in TA 3018 - was given: because he kept the Nine Rings himself, that's why. At the end of SA the Nazgul still wore their Rings, so to control them during his absence Sauron either had to keep the One or to take the Nine Rings to himself and carry these rings to Numenor. His options were limited.

[Mithadan]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also nobody in this thread questioned the loyalty of the Ulairi, whether they could be trusted to guard the One back at the end of the SA or not. Some quoted UT, "the Hunt for the Ring," forgetting that the reason why Sauron could trust the Nazgul an Age later -in TA 3018 - was given: because he kept the Nine Rings himself, that's why. At the end of SA the Nazgul still wore their Rings, so to control them during his absence Sauron either had to keep the One or to take the Nine Rings to himself and carry these rings to Numenor. His options were limited.

Again, good points, but ones that are not clearly established in any way. As to whether Sauron physically held the Nine Rings, this has been debated several times before. One thread is here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...n+nazgul+rings . There is at least one older thread but I could not locate it. There is textual evidence going both ways.

As to Sauron's control over the Nazgul, after Isildur took the Ring, Sauron was not present and had neither the One nor the Nine. Yet there is no indication that the Nazgul rebelled or, indeed, did anything other than to wait for his return and advance his cause.

[Hakon]

This is a bit off topic from the current discussion. I just feel the need to say this because people keep saying they cannot feel sympathy or Sauron. If a woman loses her engagement ring, she is going to feel terrible about it. She will even worse if it was stolen. Imagine that pain she feels 100 times worse. That is the way Sauron probably feels after he loses the ring due to Isildur.