Army Composition/Soldier Types

[JeffF.]

Hakon,

You posted that Elven spears were broad bladed. Can you please point me to the description in the books? I haven't found one myself.

thanks,

Jeff

[Rumil]

Hi all,

back home again, and with a bit of time to consider a reply!

Excellent analysis JeffF. The problem with Tolkien's military side being that he rarely gives full descriptions and numbers, but leaves us just enough titbits of information to theorize. Therefore its partly 'hard' data, partly 'gut instinct' and partly historical parallels that we have to use. This means that there is rarely a 100% correct answer but its great to debate it all.

OK then, a quick zip through JeffF's post-

Rohan- mostly agree though I would put the ratio of armoured cavalry a bit higher. In HoME 10,000 'fully-equipped' cavalry are mentioned, though admittedly this may refer to having a decent horse, spear and shield only. The culture seems to be a mix of nomadic and settled. Don't forget the infantry, I'd see them as something akin to Saxon Fyrd, with a few bows but mostly spearmen. One thing to consider is the historical tactic of putting the well-equipped armoured warriors in the first rank, supported by less-well-equipped in rear ranks, possible for both cavalry and infantry. Also that 'heaviness' of cavalry is based on attitude as well as equipment.

Gondor- ah a whole different kettle of fish! I'd like to split them into 2 different forces, Minas Tirith and 'The Rest'.

Minas Tirith -

few cavalry (Gandalf mentions this), but those presumably very well armed and armoured.

Regular heavy infantry in high quality chainmail, helmets etc, such as the Tower Guard, garrisons of the outworks etc - spear, sword, shield, perhaps some elite bowmen too.

Rangers - ME 'special forces' ! Spear-or-bow, maybe with some light chainmail, camouflaged in green cloaks etc, ideal for ambushes and raids.

The Men of the City - a militia but a good quality militia (eg Republican Romans), not full time professionals but well trained and reasonably equipped, probably the front rank of better-off men armoured, but not the rest. Armed with spears or bows.

The Rest - Rather a mix from the different Fiefs. Would not be so sure of the high proportion of cavalry, but difficult to say with the info we have. eg. Imrahil's lot were mostly on foot, with one company of knights, but they were planning to defend a city, so this is logical!

On swords, it is noticeable that the rank-and-file rarely got them in historical times, usual equipment being a spear, shield and knife for the average peasant spearman, therefore a sword was viewed as a mark of rank, except in very well organised armies like the Imperial Romans, where everyone got one. Therefore likely in Gondor, but drawing on Isildur's company for 3000 years later might be a bit iffy!

Beornings- still not convinced on Beorning cavalry, though there's no real evidence either way. I see them as Veggie Vikings, prone to big axes and berserker rages. Though its interesting to note that historical Vikings used horses when they could get them, even if they often were for transport not battle. The Beornings appear to have fought (mostly?) in the foothills and Misty Mountains (they re-opened some of the passes by defeating the goblins) so cavalry not so useful there.

Woodmen - agree entirely, presumably these would be the bowmen that the eagles were wary of, so longbows perhaps?

Dale - an interesting one, they appear to be mostly infantry at Battle of the Five Armies, but had expanded since that time to take in territories to the east on the plains where cavalry would be essential.

Thranduil - agree, though I think they may well have stored up some decent chainmail for the spearmen at least, from Dwarven or Dale sources, after all they had plenty of time to do this!

Lothlorien- agree too

Dwarves - yep, spot on, also war-mattocks too. Do you have the reference for the horn (ie composite) bows? I don't remember that.

Hobbits - armed peasantry! Good if, presumbly, short-ranged archers, gardening & agricultural tools and whatever was lying around, these could be quite effective, eg the bill. Also possibility of some decent weaponry 'hanging over the fireplace' or stored in Michel Delving Mathom House.

High Elves - yep! Possibly even a bit of Beleriand-era armour still around that Elrond mentioned.

Haradrim- woah! Remember the scimitar-armed cavalry at Pelennor, that made up at least 1/3 of their army. I've wondered if they were horse-archers like the Saracens etc, or perhaps javelin-armed, presumably 'light-ish' but prepared to countercharge (unwisely!) the Rohirrim rather than evade. Also possibly riding smaller horses than those of Rohan. Infantry agree.

Variags - a very difficult one, the word means 'wanderer' and originally applied to the Vikings in Russia. I guess this could mean 'nomad' and that the Variags were steppe horse-archers, but a number of interpretations are possible.

Easterlings - again a difficult one, often viewed as Mongol- or Hun- style steppe horse archers too, but this doesn't square with the large proportion of infantry. I've wondered if they could be equated with Ancient Eastern Europeans, eg the bearded axemen are reminiscent of Dacian falxmen, the wagons bring to mind the Goths, though the chariots are more Celtic. Interesting spot of pikes in UT! Maybe one could view them as similar to migration-period Germanic tribes. Could be that the chariots were 'Chieftain's staff-car' so not very prominent at the Pelennor (lurking at the back perhaps)?

Orcs - yup!

Trolls - not sure if the scales were the actual skin of the troll or some sort of armour (maybe nameless-thing-that-gnaws-the-world-beneath-hide?). Could be just that Boromir had an unlucky strike (edge not point?).

Dunlendings - agree. Though I think the pikemen and mixed halforc/man units were probably Saruman's own specially-trained troops and taught the common tongue, whereas the majority would be semi-independent tribes under their own chieftains speaking their own language.

Some others -

Rangers of Arnor - see Rangers above, only more so and on horses when they felt like it.

Ruffians - remnants of Saruman's human troops - note they speak the common tongue not 'Dunlendingish'.

Corsairs - probably mostly quite lightly equipped, being seafarers and raiders. A bit pirate-y, cutlasses, scimitars, short spears, bows etc. Possibly more use for raiding and skirmishing than in a stand-up fight. However there might well be a subset of the Unfaithful and Black Numenoreans who would be rather more formidable.

Morgul- Note the Witch King's cavalry regiment - presumably Black Numenoreans - elite troops, probably used to force the unwilling snagas into combat!

Wolves - used as-is or as orc mounts. I don't believe they looked like giant hyenas! Common in the Misty Mountains, whence came Saruman's lot I guess. Not much mention of them in the armies of Mordor, but I imagine a few must have been about.

Eagles, Ents, Giants(?) - big and v scary!

Artillery - Mordor had plenty, with trebuchet-like devices, siege towers, Grond etc. Gondor had some (possibly scorpios?) that were out-ranged. Saruman too.

[JeffF.]

Rumil,

The reference to bows of horn was in the Hobbit, as Thorin is negotiating with Bard he grabs a "bow of horn." Tolkien probably refers to the Scythian or Hun type bow which was a composite of wood, horn, sinew and bone.

I disagree on the amount of horsemen of the Haradrim, in RotK the Siege of Gondor, Gandalph is describing to Pippin that the Gondorians must prepare a sortie of horsemen because they have that advantage over their enemies, he says, "in them lies our brief hope, in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided, he has few horsemen." As the host that besieges Minas Tirith has Haradrim, Easterlings and Variags, apparently none of these lands have been able to provide Sauron with many horsemen. Haradrim cavalry is described later battling the Rohorrim but given Gandalph's earlier INTEL they were not a large part of the enemy host, certainly if the Haradrim had 6000 horsemen (your 1/3 of the 18000 Tolkien describes - thrice the number of the Rohirrim) Gandalph would not have made such a statement.

The Easterling armies are described in FotR, The Breaking of the Fellowship. As Frodo is escaping from Boromir while wearing the Ring he has visions of the armies of the enemy, the Easterlings are described as swordmen, spearmen, horse archers and chieftains on chariots. As the charioteers are not described at Minas Tirith perhaps these particular Easterling tribes were those marching against Dale and Erebor.

There were more mounted Gondor contingents. Aragorn's force included men from Lamedon led by Angbor who was bringing all the horsemen he could muster. It is likely that Gondor's force had evolved since the days they were mostly longswordsmen and steelbowmen (as describedin Unfinished Tales - Disaster at Gladden Fields), and the battles described to them in RotK appendices would have forced them to develop a mounted force as a compensation over the superior numbers of their Eastern and Southern enemies. Also the ancestors of the Rohirrim are said to have entered the service of Gondor's armies. These mercenaries and/or allies would have influenced Gondor's armies. The appendices state that many of these integrated into Gondor and so would bring with them their tradition of mounted warfare.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

great find on Thorin's bow, I'd not noticed that one!

I'm still convinced there were plenty of Haradrim cavalry. Gandalf's quote is right at the start of the siege on Minas Tirith, as the mounted foray is being planned, when the forces that the Witch King has brought up are those of Minas Morgul. These contained some Southrons, (and likely the black-clothed cavalry of Morgul) but the way I read it is that the majority of the Haradrim arrived later. eg.

Far behind the battle the River had been swiftly bridged and all day more force and gear of war had poured across

However, by the time of the charge of the Rohirrim these forces were in place and the horsemen of the Haradrim were gathered around the serpent standard of their cheftain.

But the white fury of the Northmen burned the hotter, and more skilled was their knighthood with long spears and bitter. Fewer were they but they clove through the Southrons like a fire-bolt in a forest

So the Southron cavalry outnumbered the Rohirrim, who were about 5500 strong by that stage, so there should have been at least 6000 Haradrim cavalry, out of their total force of at least 18,000, thrice the number of Rohirrim.

Yes agree with you on the Easterlings, though perhaps the chieftains' chariots were for transport only or 'command vehicles' and thus not sufficiently prominent in the battle to be recorded.

Also agree with the likelihood that the Fiefs of Gondor could field a good force of cavalry, though impossible to say how much. However Minas Tirith itself was poorly provided with horse (led in battle by Hurin the Warder of the Keys), even after reinforcement by Imrahil etc. On the volunteers of Rohan its interesting to note that some had even joined Faramir's Rangers.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On the Sindar: Those of Doriath F.A. were described as being the "axe-Elves," and T describes the hoards of axes Thingol purchased from the Dwarves. This preference may well have been transferred to Lorien and Mirkwood when those realms were "Sindarized under the impact of Beleriandic culture;" and axes also make sense for iron-poor woodland folk. Even if the Wood-elves were primarily spear-armed, they were not a peasant militia and one would assume that, like the hoplites and phalangites, they carried a secondary weapon for close-in work.

[JeffF.]

Hi Rumil,

i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Gandalph's statement to me is based on what he knows of the enemy as a whole and not a temporary state of affairs. Theoden also divided his charge into three parts with Eomer following the King's household troops down the center, Elfhelm leading the right flank and Grimbold leading the left. This would have been necessary to engage the larger enemy force and bringing the greatest shock action to bear. Each of these divisions would have had about 2000 Rohirrim. The way I read the engagment: "...their horsemen were gathered about the standard of their chieftain. And he looked out....he saw the banner of the king...with few men about it,...then he came against the white horse with a great press of men...." to me that means the Haradrim were concentrating against Theoden and the men of the King's household "the few" that were with him at that moment and not a general attack against the entire mass of the Haradrim and that the statement made about the King's men being fewer is pertaining only to this small engagement within the general action.

[Rumil]

Hi JeffF,

agree that its ambiguous, were the Haradrim outnumbering Theoden's eored, Theoden's 'division' of 2000, or the entire force of Rohirric cav? I don't think one can tell with certainty from the text but even if it were just the central division, they might be 3000 or more.

I'm also tempted to see the Haradrim as similar to the Moors in Spain or the Saracens, that were quite cavalry-heavy. Therefore 1/3 of the force being cav would be, if anything, rather on the low side. It's an open question too as to what the rest of the 18,000 or so Haradrim were, inf or cav, apart from the Mumakil of course.

Also it removes one of the few 'hard numbers' we have !

As for Gandalf's remark it seems plain to me that this was considering the forces available at that time, to base it on the forces that would arrive in a day or two's time is illogical.

'A sortie must be made ready. Let it be of mounted men. In them lies our brief hope, for in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided: he has few horsemen.'
'And also we have few...' said Denethor

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by JeffF.

Hakon,

You posted that Elven spears were broad bladed. Can you please point me to the description in the books? I haven't found one myself.

thanks,

Jeff

I actually made my assumption here based off the movies. Although from what I know the person who designed the spear for the movie is the same person who did a lot of the cover art for the books. This may not be accurate, it is just an assumption.