Time to come clean - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 05-22-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

It appears that others forgive blatant deception pretty easily.

If any of you are without sin...

FotP, I could see if it were someone like me, who may try to manipulate others for gain, rep points or just mere amusement; to actively set out to deceive people with the intent of causing pain, suffering, delusion, acne, summer reruns, etc. Someone who is wise as a serpent and and harmless as a sneezing Ebola-laden dove with a case of the runs. Someone old enough, and with the means and wit to know better, someone 'tall' enough to never to be in over his/her head.

I'm not the best one to judge here, but it this the case with BoroKent?

Rumil · 05-22-2009, 06:57 PM

Don't worry mate,

sounds like its not a problem. I must say that I've rarely believed 100% in online personas, in fact it would be silly to do so.

Maybe I should start an account where I'm 16 again !

Cheers,

Rumil

Feanor of the Peredhil · 05-22-2009, 07:14 PM

No lectures about cast stones, if you please. If he hadn't wanted a public display of displeasure, he wouldn't have made a blatantly public statement. Given that he chose a public forum for his admission, it is unfair that I should be lambasted for an honest public reaction.

Whether or not I overreact, that aspect of the matter is private, and has been dealt with quietly, efficiently, politely, and, above all, privately.

And whether or not I forgive him for misleading me for the past five years is, succinctly, nobody's business but ours.

alatar · 05-22-2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

No lectures about cast stones, if you please.

I sincerely apologize, though I must say that, being older, I can't help but lecture...plus feeling 'holier than thou' always gives me such a warmth.

Quote:

If he hadn't wanted a public display of displeasure, he wouldn't have made a blatantly public statement. Given that he chose a public forum for his admission, it is unfair that I should be lambasted for an honest public reaction.

Hmmm...I just reread what I wrote in response to you, and I can spin it as an explanation of *my* thoughts in regards to this. I don't think that I was saying anything about you or your reaction per se, though it is a response to "others forgive blatant deception pretty easily." I, being one of the others, did forgive because, for me, there wasn't anything to forgive. Others may feel differently, and he will have to deal with them as necessary, as I had also stated. Anyway, my response to you is an explanation of my reaction.

Sorry if you felt attacked (though I still will try to lecture when I can).

Quote:

Whether or not I overreact, that aspect of the matter is private, and has been dealt with quietly, efficiently, politely, and, above all, privately.

Sure; maybe that's how you would have done it, or maybe BoroKent would have done it if he had the chance to do it again. But here we are.

And did I *state* that you overreacted?

Quote:

And whether or not I forgive him for misleading me for the past five years is, succinctly, nobody's business but ours.

Much agreed. I forgave him (again; didn't care) publicly, as that was my thing.

Herald_of_Mandos · 05-22-2009, 08:04 PM

That's not all, people.

I have it on good authority that the so-called "Nerwen" is in reality a 15-year-old boy. ("Man-maiden" indeed!) You wait till the warders in the Home for Uncontrollable Teenagers find out what he's been up to...

Formendacil · 05-22-2009, 08:18 PM

Why do I feel like I've just been left out of something major?

Well, basically because I haven't been on in 24 hours and a major storm blew over. I think I'll just sit here twitching for a bit, thank you.

Okay, I'm still very much twitching. Probably will be for a while yet. There is a major mental switch that needs to be thrown. In my personal case, I am not offended--but I didn't interact with you much beyond WW, I agree the Internet is a dangerous place, and I'm a rather forgiving sort (at least, I like to think I am).

That doesn't mean I'm not totally rocking back on my heels, trying to somehow find a steady rock here. As someone who essentially tries to put forward the same face on the Internet that he does with the family, at school, I'm perhaps a touch too trusting--not that I've been burned here so much as I've ordered my world to include an older Boromir who hangs out on the 'Downs, and my world needs a slight restructuring of its metaphysics. Why, an '88 kid means I'm older than you!

The fact, however, that I am either cool with this or forgiving (I'm honestly not sure which it is, but I lean to the latter), does not mean that I do not utterly and completely disagree with the idea that "it's only the internet, it doesn't matter that much."

Unfortunately (for you) by bringing this up, you've basically allowed me to trot out one of my favourite hobby-horses. In the Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle's seminal work on Ethics, the question of what constitutes friendship, and the relationship of friendship to the moral life, is a huge part of the book, and Aristotle seems to come to the conclusion that what is necessary for friendship, in its highest form, is the free exchange of ideas: the ability to bounce thoughts and reasonings and arguments back and forth--to get to know who another person IS.

Aristotle also seems to indicate that this isn't possible unless you spend time doing stuff with them. At this point, my professor was of the opinion that you CAN'T have real friendships online because you can't know if someone else is being genuine, that the invisible clues of body language and non-verbal communication are essential to KNOWING the person you're talking to, and that this knowledge is necessary in order to have a real friendship. My basic contention is that you may not KNOW if the other person is being honest, but you CAN share ideas freely, bounce contemplation back and forth, and invest copious amounts of time on the well-being of another online.

That is precisely why, for me, this really is a big deal; because I have done that. Here, on the Downs especially, I have made, I think, dozens of friends, and even--I dare say--two or three of my BEST friends, better friends than I've made in the three years now past of my undergrad studies, better friends than three years of living in community with people, better friends than growing up 19 years in a small town. Better friends, I emphasize, based entirely on the free exchange of thought and the investment of time on a wholly virtual medium.

Which is why this matters to me, and why I fully agree that Boromir needed to come clean. Because of the amount of time he has invested--that others have invested in him--in the people here, these relationships are simply too seriously NOT to correct. I agree, too, that this coming out ought to hurt somewhat, since it is, indeed, a serious breach of trust, given the intensity that these relationships can take on. And yes, it may take time to heal.

Personally, I didn't know the fake Boromir well enough to have been hurt, and despite that my world is shaken. I'm willing to agree that "to err is human, to forgive divine"--but I realise we're all human, so the first part may be all we can hope to do.

And... yeah... I'm kind of running out of steam. Still twitching a bit, but getting used to the idea. Mind full of random thoughts...

Yes, Agan, I wondered why Facebook had two new group requests in the same day.

Yes, I had no idea who this John guy was.

"Colour" is how you're SUPPOSED to spell, Alatar.

And I prefer Boromir to Kent. Boromir was a liar, but he was a likeable liar, and he was real; Kent was honest, but he was a façade. But I think I'm going to reconcile the mental problem with John.

Pleased to meet you, John.

~Signed confusedly, verbosely, preachily, and nonsensically,

Michael A. Joosten - Formendacil

satansaloser2005 · 05-22-2009, 08:30 PM

Couldn't have said it better myself, Form. Shorter, perhaps, but not better.

Boro, you're still cool with me and honestly, though the facts of your life aren't true you're still the same guy, so I really prefer you to stay rather than Kent, who has all your history and facts and stuff but....well, isn't you, at least not to me.

*hugs you*

And besides, regardless of how old you are or where you work (or rather, don't) you're still a flipping awesome Werewolf player and it will be my pleasure to play with/against you in many games to come. So yes, please stay Boro/John/Kent.

~~Sally/Kayla/Whatever else you all decide to call me

~~

Nerwen · 05-22-2009, 08:46 PM

Oh, I love the Internet sometimes.

Boro, or should I say Kent– you know what this makes you, don't you?

Folwren · 05-23-2009, 12:37 PM

At first I thought this was quite humorous. And then I read some people's responses wherein the writer had apparently been stung. Then for a bit I thought it was even more humorous. But then it occurred to me, "Well, what would you feel like if someone like Elempi suddenly turned out to be your own age and not older, wiser, and more experienced?" Somewhat a disturbing thought.

However, as Dury said above, on the internet you have to be careful anyway and not give out too much personal info. I hope the close friends you have made over the 5 years don't feel too burned by this sudden change of age. (Your incorrect age was the main thing that surprised me.)

I think you should stick around. I enjoy your role-playing, when you're around to do it, and I would think it downright sad if you left the Downs after 5 years.

I have absolutely nothing to hold against you, and therefore have nothing to forgive or to excuse.

-- Foley

Legate of Amon Lanc · 05-23-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Never... but oh, dear.... Ulumuri, I find myself looking at you hard and wondering who you are really... (Legate? Aganzir?)

No seriously, welcome to the Downs, Ulumuri.

*sigh* I fear that newbies are going to be scrutinised very heavily from now on...

(Come on, admit it, you're really Durelin, aren't you?

)

Nerwen, I know you already well enough so that I can see through you. It is pretty clear who is Ulumuri. Okay, sorry if I ruined your fun...

Nah, but really - I think you are right about the newbies. I just hope the main wave of scrutinising newbies will drop again soon. Of course the place is a bit shaken now.

Anyway, just a small, not very important note - there was one more thing I actually thought of - I see that when playing in the last WW with Kent, killing him was truly about something different than it actually seemed... now I feel about it somewhat different than I did in the game. Relatedly... I think some things might actually sort of come to our mind in realisation only gradually - but of course, the shock itself was only initial, now the rest are just minor things like this.

Boromir88 · 05-23-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Anyway Boro, I have a suggestion- you could change your avatar.~Agan

I can go back to my very 1st and original avatar, this I might have had before you joined. Like?

Aganzir · 05-23-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I can go back to my very 1st and original avatar, this I might have had before you joined. Like?

Well you had it before I joined, but not before I started stalking, so I recognize it.

I have nothing against it though, given that back then I was still under the impression that the 88 stood for your year of birth.

Nogrod · 05-23-2009, 03:34 PM

Interesting indeed...

To state the obvious: those with whom you may have gotten a bit closer here in the 'Downs are the people you should talk about things BoroKent. We others who only know you as a resourceful, intelligent, civilised and friendly poster - and an excellent werewolf-player - you probably need not worry about.

My feelings can be read from many posts in this thread. Please stay around and continue posting as Boro, that is what we are used to and with whom we have enjoyd posting & playing so long. Someone said something like: it's easier to adjust oneself into thinking about a Boro "with a twist" than with the thought of Kent as someone "who-once-used-to-be-Boro". That's exactly my feelings now.

I quite liked this Kent-person though. I must admit. Although my experiences with him are limited to just two werewolf-games (he was just too good to be true?). After the dust settles we would probably settle with Kent as well even if it now feels odd.

But thinking about what could be a problem, how come you didn't decide to reveal your identity first to those who were nearer and dearer to you and only then go fully public? Or is that something only a 39-year old Boro would do?

Anyway that is something you have to settle down with those people (and wasn't it just that pressure that forced you to come clean with the issue in the first place?).

I don't think you will have a problem with the rest of us, especially after your frank revealment, apologies & reasons given why you did it back then which only speak good about you. Well, if not only then mainly at least.

Nogrod · 05-23-2009, 03:36 PM

Haha! *The Avvie*

I haven't seen that for a long time...

Durelin · 05-23-2009, 12:27 AM

It's the internet. Yes we get pretty cozy on the 'Downs here, some more than others, but the reality is there (and this coming from someone who met her *significant other* of almost 5 years on the interwebs, so don't think I'm ragging on it as silly or strange). Really it's not wise to share much true personal information in general, so pfft. And I understand parents being concerned about your internet activity. I also have done precisely what you did on other sites, and did use a second screenname on the 'Downs in order to play in an RPG loosely incognito.

Be who you want to be -- love having you around, RPing with you, playing WW with you, etc. regardless.

Ulumuri · 05-23-2009, 12:40 AM

Hello - I've been lurking here for over a year, but this was enough to bring me out into the open. You will never get rid of me now!

What I would like to know is how many of you have played werewolf under two or more different screen names - in the same game?

Nerwen · 05-23-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulumuri

Hello - I've been lurking here for over a year, but this was enough to bring me out into the open. You will never get rid of me now!

What I would like to know is how many of you have played werewolf under two or more different screen names - in the same game?

Never... but oh, dear.... Ulumuri, I find myself looking at you hard and wondering who you are really... (Legate? Aganzir?)

No seriously, welcome to the Downs, Ulumuri.

*sigh* I fear that newbies are going to be scrutinised very heavily from now on...

(Come on, admit it, you're really Durelin, aren't you?

)

Boromir88 · 05-23-2009, 01:07 AM

Quote:

I just can't help wondering why you didn't come out way, way earlier and dug yourself deeper and deeper into this hole. Posting under a false identity on a forum is one thing... but getting into more personal contact with others this way, even if it's still just over the net... well...~Mac

Stupidity? I don't know if I can tell you...I mean I first just wanted to look like I knew what the heck I was talking on LOTR about when seeing some posts from other members. Then it kind of developed with my desire to become a teacher, I thought if I appeared older than a high school student, then that desire to help and understand "students", would work better. At that time I was still in high school, I really had no idea what it was like to teach, because I pretty much only saw them in the class room environment...but I knew my dad. I knew his job, I knew from working with him how much he hated working for the fireworks business because of the "volunteer" work he had to force people to sign up for. So, that's how it came to be, I don't know what ever gave me the idea that it would be a good one.

Aganzir · 05-23-2009, 02:02 AM

Hahaha you look hilarious in that video. The only thing I'm sorry about is that the other guy didn't have to dress up as a Disney princess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

(Legate? Aganzir?)

Bah I would never do that.

Anyway Boro, I have a suggestion- you could change your avatar. At least I have a tendency to imagine people look like their avvies, so it'd be easier to see you as a 20-something if you don't have a 50-something as your avatar.

FeRaL sHaDoW · 05-23-2009, 03:41 AM

Honestly you should not worry too much over this. I am sure almost everyone here has or is an alter ego for another account. You never know who you might just be talking to.

05-22-2009, 06:57 PM	#2
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Let him cast the first stone Don't worry mate, sounds like its not a problem. I must say that I've rarely believed 100% in online personas, in fact it would be silly to do so. Maybe I should start an account where I'm 16 again ! Cheers, Rumil __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

05-22-2009, 07:14 PM	#3
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	No lectures about cast stones, if you please. If he hadn't wanted a public display of displeasure, he wouldn't have made a blatantly public statement. Given that he chose a public forum for his admission, it is unfair that I should be lambasted for an honest public reaction. Whether or not I overreact, that aspect of the matter is private, and has been dealt with quietly, efficiently, politely, and, above all, privately. And whether or not I forgive him for misleading me for the past five years is, succinctly, nobody's business but ours. __________________ peace

05-22-2009, 08:18 PM	#6
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Why do I feel like I've just been left out of something major? Well, basically because I haven't been on in 24 hours and a major storm blew over. I think I'll just sit here twitching for a bit, thank you. Okay, I'm still very much twitching. Probably will be for a while yet. There is a major mental switch that needs to be thrown. In my personal case, I am not offended--but I didn't interact with you much beyond WW, I agree the Internet is a dangerous place, and I'm a rather forgiving sort (at least, I like to think I am). That doesn't mean I'm not totally rocking back on my heels, trying to somehow find a steady rock here. As someone who essentially tries to put forward the same face on the Internet that he does with the family, at school, I'm perhaps a touch too trusting--not that I've been burned here so much as I've ordered my world to include an older Boromir who hangs out on the 'Downs, and my world needs a slight restructuring of its metaphysics. Why, an '88 kid means I'm older than you! The fact, however, that I am either cool with this or forgiving (I'm honestly not sure which it is, but I lean to the latter), does not mean that I do not utterly and completely disagree with the idea that "it's only the internet, it doesn't matter that much." Unfortunately (for you) by bringing this up, you've basically allowed me to trot out one of my favourite hobby-horses. In the Nicomachean Ethics, Aristotle's seminal work on Ethics, the question of what constitutes friendship, and the relationship of friendship to the moral life, is a huge part of the book, and Aristotle seems to come to the conclusion that what is necessary for friendship, in its highest form, is the free exchange of ideas: the ability to bounce thoughts and reasonings and arguments back and forth--to get to know who another person IS. Aristotle also seems to indicate that this isn't possible unless you spend time doing stuff with them. At this point, my professor was of the opinion that you CAN'T have real friendships online because you can't know if someone else is being genuine, that the invisible clues of body language and non-verbal communication are essential to KNOWING the person you're talking to, and that this knowledge is necessary in order to have a real friendship. My basic contention is that you may not KNOW if the other person is being honest, but you CAN share ideas freely, bounce contemplation back and forth, and invest copious amounts of time on the well-being of another online. That is precisely why, for me, this really is a big deal; because I have done that. Here, on the Downs especially, I have made, I think, dozens of friends, and even--I dare say--two or three of my BEST friends, better friends than I've made in the three years now past of my undergrad studies, better friends than three years of living in community with people, better friends than growing up 19 years in a small town. Better friends, I emphasize, based entirely on the free exchange of thought and the investment of time on a wholly virtual medium. Which is why this matters to me, and why I fully agree that Boromir needed to come clean. Because of the amount of time he has invested--that others have invested in him--in the people here, these relationships are simply too seriously NOT to correct. I agree, too, that this coming out ought to hurt somewhat, since it is, indeed, a serious breach of trust, given the intensity that these relationships can take on. And yes, it may take time to heal. Personally, I didn't know the fake Boromir well enough to have been hurt, and despite that my world is shaken. I'm willing to agree that "to err is human, to forgive divine"--but I realise we're all human, so the first part may be all we can hope to do. And... yeah... I'm kind of running out of steam. Still twitching a bit, but getting used to the idea. Mind full of random thoughts... Yes, Agan, I wondered why Facebook had two new group requests in the same day. Yes, I had no idea who this John guy was. "Colour" is how you're SUPPOSED to spell, Alatar. And I prefer Boromir to Kent. Boromir was a liar, but he was a likeable liar, and he was real; Kent was honest, but he was a façade. But I think I'm going to reconcile the mental problem with John. Pleased to meet you, John. ~Signed confusedly, verbosely, preachily, and nonsensically, Michael A. Joosten - Formendacil __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

05-22-2009, 08:30 PM	#7
satansaloser2005 The Sweetest Spoiler Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: from beneath you it giggles incessantly Posts: 5,789	Couldn't have said it better myself, Form. Shorter, perhaps, but not better. Boro, you're still cool with me and honestly, though the facts of your life aren't true you're still the same guy, so I really prefer you to stay rather than Kent, who has all your history and facts and stuff but....well, isn't you, at least not to me. hugs you And besides, regardless of how old you are or where you work (or rather, don't) you're still a flipping awesome Werewolf player and it will be my pleasure to play with/against you in many games to come. So yes, please stay Boro/John/Kent. ~~Sally/Kayla/Whatever else you all decide to call me~~ __________________ "My heart always cowers behind the defense of my wit." Friendship is two pals munching on a well-cooked face together. Fenris bookworm.

05-22-2009, 08:46 PM	#8
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Oh, I love the Internet sometimes. Boro, or should I say Kent– you know what this makes you, don't you? __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. Last edited by Nerwen; 05-22-2009 at 08:50 PM.

05-22-2009, 08:04 PM	#5
Herald_of_Mandos Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bodoni (SS) Posts: 21	That's not all, people. I have it on good authority that the so-called "Nerwen" is in reality a 15-year-old boy. ("Man-maiden" indeed!) You wait till the warders in the Home for Uncontrollable Teenagers find out what he's been up to...

05-23-2009, 12:37 PM	#9
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	At first I thought this was quite humorous. And then I read some people's responses wherein the writer had apparently been stung. Then for a bit I thought it was even more humorous. But then it occurred to me, "Well, what would you feel like if someone like Elempi suddenly turned out to be your own age and not older, wiser, and more experienced?" Somewhat a disturbing thought. However, as Dury said above, on the internet you have to be careful anyway and not give out too much personal info. I hope the close friends you have made over the 5 years don't feel too burned by this sudden change of age. (Your incorrect age was the main thing that surprised me.) I think you should stick around. I enjoy your role-playing, when you're around to do it, and I would think it downright sad if you left the Downs after 5 years. I have absolutely nothing to hold against you, and therefore have nothing to forgive or to excuse. -- Foley __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

05-23-2009, 03:34 PM	#13
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Interesting indeed... To state the obvious: those with whom you may have gotten a bit closer here in the 'Downs are the people you should talk about things BoroKent. We others who only know you as a resourceful, intelligent, civilised and friendly poster - and an excellent werewolf-player - you probably need not worry about. My feelings can be read from many posts in this thread. Please stay around and continue posting as Boro, that is what we are used to and with whom we have enjoyd posting & playing so long. Someone said something like: it's easier to adjust oneself into thinking about a Boro "with a twist" than with the thought of Kent as someone "who-once-used-to-be-Boro". That's exactly my feelings now. I quite liked this Kent-person though. I must admit. Although my experiences with him are limited to just two werewolf-games (he was just too good to be true?). After the dust settles we would probably settle with Kent as well even if it now feels odd. But thinking about what could be a problem, how come you didn't decide to reveal your identity first to those who were nearer and dearer to you and only then go fully public? Or is that something only a 39-year old Boro would do? Anyway that is something you have to settle down with those people (and wasn't it just that pressure that forced you to come clean with the issue in the first place?). I don't think you will have a problem with the rest of us, especially after your frank revealment, apologies & reasons given why you did it back then which only speak good about you. Well, if not only then mainly at least. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

05-23-2009, 03:36 PM	#14
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	Haha! The Avvie I haven't seen that for a long time... __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

05-23-2009, 12:27 AM	#15
Durelin Estelo dagnir, Melo ring Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,063	It's the internet. Yes we get pretty cozy on the 'Downs here, some more than others, but the reality is there (and this coming from someone who met her significant other of almost 5 years on the interwebs, so don't think I'm ragging on it as silly or strange). Really it's not wise to share much true personal information in general, so pfft. And I understand parents being concerned about your internet activity. I also have done precisely what you did on other sites, and did use a second screenname on the 'Downs in order to play in an RPG loosely incognito. Be who you want to be -- love having you around, RPing with you, playing WW with you, etc. regardless. Last edited by Durelin; 05-23-2009 at 12:31 AM.

05-23-2009, 12:40 AM	#16
Ulumuri Newly Deceased Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 9	Hello - I've been lurking here for over a year, but this was enough to bring me out into the open. You will never get rid of me now! What I would like to know is how many of you have played werewolf under two or more different screen names - in the same game?

05-23-2009, 03:41 AM	#20
FeRaL sHaDoW Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 232	Honestly you should not worry too much over this. I am sure almost everyone here has or is an alter ego for another account. You never know who you might just be talking to. __________________ God created night, but man created darkness....