For in that sleep of death what dreams may come.

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:

Or is Merry reliving a previous life (well, in this case, death). Is this one tiny example of a possibility that Merry is here reliving a past death? If elves can reincarnate, could this be a suggestion that Men could, too?

Interesting idea, but I must say I don't at all buy it. Tolkien seems to have been quite settled on the idea that a (perhaps the) fundamental difference between Elves and Men was this: Elvish spirits remain in the world after they die; Mannish spirits depart 'elsewhither'.

Of course, there are a very few exceptions, but these are all very special and very well recorded cases. Beren was reincarnated, but only before his spirit 'sought elsewhither' and left Arda. Turin is prophecized to return at the Dagor Dagorath, 'returning from the Doom of Men' - but this is of course a one-shot, as it were, and doesn't come about until the world's end. Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar, but only because he had a very particular mission to fulfill and because he was, after all, really a Maia and merely incarnated in human form.

Moreover, Tolkien eventually rejected rebirth even for the Elves, opting instead for literal reincarnation; their adult bodies were simply re-created. It seems to have been philosophical considerations that lead him to this.

That isn't to say that human fear can't perhaps linger in the world in some cases before taking Iluvatar's Gift and departing. We certainly see that in the Dead Men of Dunharrow, for instance, and I think in the Barrow-wights as well. I have always assumed that a houseless fea living in the barrow was attempting to take control of Merry's hroa, and in the process momentarily imparted its memories to him. Interestingly, though, the Barrow-wights themselves don't seem to be houseless fear - it seems they still control their (un)dead bodies. Or perhaps, being dead, they are no longer inextricably attached to their corpses, and the fea of the Barrow-wight was seeking to take control of the stronger hroa of one of the Hobbits.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Most interesting topic!

A pity I'm not sure if I will be able to think of it enough now to contribute much, but at least something...

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Interesting idea, but I must say I don't at all buy it. Tolkien seems to have been quite settled on the idea that a (perhaps the) fundamental difference between Elves and Men was this: Elvish spirits remain in the world after they die; Mannish spirits depart 'elsewhither'.

Of course, there are a very few exceptions, but these are all very special and very well recorded cases. Beren was reincarnated, but only before his spirit 'sought elsewhither' and left Arda. Turin is prophecized to return at the Dagor Dagorath, 'returning from the Doom of Men' - but this is of course a one-shot, as it were, and doesn't come about until the world's end. Gandalf was sent back by Iluvatar, but only because he had a very particular mission to fulfill and because he was, after all, really a Maia and merely incarnated in human form.

Yes, I certainly disagree with any kind of reincarnation-like things when it comes to Men (and Hobbits), and especially: even the moments you mention were not really reincarnation. Or, they were: in the sense of taking it in the purely material way, simply, reappearing again after death. But the term "reincarnation" being mostly used for the return of a, let's say, spirit into a new different body, perhaps we are closer to the Judeo-Christian concept of "resurrection" - which signifies returning of basically the same person, or at least the preservation of identity (perhaps with a few "differences in quality" - well, something like Gandalf the White in contrary to Gandalf the Grey, indeed!). Certainly Túrin would be the same Túrin, wouldn't he? Likewise Beren was rather resurrected - I wonder if he even still lacked one hand, by the way.

Moreover, I would find any ideas of reincarnation in Middle-Earth dismissed by what is said in the Appendices about the Dwarves - there is something about Durin and the Dwarves believing that he returns from time to time (indeed, reincarnates) - and the comment after this sentence is something like "because they have many strange beliefs", which basically says "well you see, Dwarves are weird, they believe in something us Hobbits - and Men and Elves, relatedly, because that's who we are writing this for - find really weird".

[Aiwendil]

I think three varieties of return from the dead can be differentiated:

Rebirth: The spirit returns in the body of a newly-born infant. This was Tolkien's original idea for the Elves, and apparently for the Dwarf-fathers, but was later dropped for metaphysical reasons. This is sometimes called 'reincarnation' in the context of Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., but I don't think Tolkien every referred to it that way.

Reincarnation: A new (adult) body is made, fully formed, for the returning spirit. This was Tolkien's later idea for the manner of the Elves' return from death.

Resurrection: The original body, still intact, is re-inhabited by the spirit. This was apparently Tolkien's later idea for the manner of the Dwarf-fathers' return (from, I believe, 'Of Dwarves and Men').

The names could perhaps be quibbled with (and actually, I don't recall Tolkien using the word 'resurrection'), but I think the different concepts are clearly delineated. The Turin and Gandalf examples are clearly reincarnation. The Beren example was either reincarnation or resurrection. But the important points are that: 1. Tolkien eventually rejected the idea of 'rebirth' entirely, and 2. the occurrence of any of these things for the spirit of a human is quite exceptional.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Resurrection: The original body, still intact, is re-inhabited by the spirit.

I disagree with this definition; resurrected bodies, in the Christian usage of the word, with which Tolkien would be most familiar, are not the identical, original bodies but are a special kind, same in appearance, but differing in their material, perhaps? This accounts for the ability to disappear into the spiritual realm after resurrection.

This concept seems to me to apply to resurrected Elves and Gandalf (and, as a human exception, Beren); I tend to agree with those who consider the Barrow situation as something completely different: a kind of inhabitance, something like possession.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I disagree with this definition; resurrected bodies, in the Christian usage of the word, with which Tolkien would be most familiar, are not the identical, original bodies but are a special kind, same in appearance, but differing in their material, perhaps? This accounts for the ability to disappear into the spiritual realm after resurrection.

This concept seems to me to apply to resurrected Elves and Gandalf (and, as a human exception, Beren); I tend to agree with those who consider the Barrow situation as something completely different: a kind of inhabitance, something like possession.

Exactly (for both).

I think the concept is rather:

Resurrection - a dead person is brought back to life again, but in a different quality (absolutely perfect example: Gandalf. Parallel: [Judeo]-Christian term of resurrection)

Reincarnation - in the sense of rebirth: the same person is born again anew in a new body - similar to the former, but a new one still - as a baby (typical example: Dwarven belief of all the Durins returning - I guess they were reborn as babies, or it seems so logically from the narration in the Appendices: it was not so that a fully grown Durin VII. would all of a sudden appear among people. Parallel: Hindu term of reincarnation)

The Barrow scene was really, in my opinion, something like possession, just as Esty said: Merry's memories got sort of mixed with the thoughts of the spirit.

As for why it was Merry who was so prone to all these things, he always stroke me as the most "deep" of all the Hobbits, in the sense of "having close to the metaphysical" - well, of course, with the exception of Frodo - but Merry was the one who kept meeting the Nazgul all the time (in Bree, on Pelennor) and generally being the most "thoughtful", or so it seemed to me. So why not him...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I guess they [Dwarves] were reborn as babies, or it seems so logically from the narration in the Appendices: it was not so that a fully grown Durin VII. would all of a sudden appear among people.

Apparently not:

The Dwarves add that at that time Aule gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the long span of life alotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of its own body, at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingdom again.

--HME XII.383

and

... the reappearance, at long intervals, of the person of one of the Dwarf-fathers, in the lines of their kings - e.g. especially Durin - is not when examined probably one of rebirth, but of the preservation of the body of a former King Durin (say) to which at intervals his spirit would return.

-- ibid.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Apparently not:

Nice, but uncanonical. Because the canonical works oppose that:

Originally Posted by LotR Appendix A III, Durin's Folk

There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.

The emphasised word is of course mine. But this refers to obvious reincarnation (using the terminology I outlined above), not merely the revival of the old body.