Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The slight thorn in this issue is that of Mithrellas. Presumably she abandoned her family because she could not bear to see them age and die - although it says she was taken to wife by Imrazor, I don't think this means it was against her will.

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And it's interesting (though of uncertain import) that the Lords of Dol Amroth were never accounted "Half-elven;" just Men with an Elvish strain.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Arwen's statement to Aragorn on his deathbed that "there is now no ship that would bear me hence", when considered against the background that Legolas had yet to build his ship in Ithilien, is I think significant.

The physical ability to go West was still therefore an option for Arwen, because a ship would become available. So she either underwent some kind of physical change becoming mortal, and/or was banned from the West, and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

The same kind of strictures surely didn't apply to Elladan and Elrohir and I'm pretty certain they remained of elven-kind and could go West any time they chose during the Fourth Age.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

and/or even swapped her "berth" on a ship with Frodo. I seem to remember she implied to Frodo that he could go West in her place.

Well, Tolkien expressly denied this last option.

It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority'....No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. The Appendices show clearly that he was an emissary of the Valar, and virtually their plenipotentiary in accomplishing the plan against Sauron.

He then says something which bears on the matter of Arwen herself:

and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'.

This is doubly interesting: the implication (reinforcing others) that by the time of Arwen's discussion with Frodo in the garden, the Choice was already operative (before Elrond's sailing); and also the implication that those of the Elvenkind were somehow in closer "communication" (whatever that means) than mortals.

What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange.

There is a trend in Tolkien, at least in his later reflections on his work, that 'exceptions' were granted specifically in those cases where a Divine Plan was involved: Melian's becoming incarnate and bearing a child; Luthien's becoming mortal and bearing a half-Elven child; Tuor's finding Gondolin, marrying an Elf and siring Earendil (and, we think, becoming an Elf himself); and Glorfindel's being released and re-embodied not just for his heroism, but specifically because his heroism ensured Earendil's survival. To this we might add the only other Noldorin Exile we know affirmatively to have been released from Mandos, Finrod: his sacrifice allowed the quest of the Silmaril to be achieved, and ultimately the "divine" strain in Men.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But Mithrellas never had any choice - she wasn't of the children of Earendil and Elwing. She couldn't follow her husband beyond the Circles of the World.

You misunderstand me. I am perfectly aware of who Mithrellas was! I meant that the marriage of Imrazor and Mithrellas doesnt fit in with the idea that Arwen had to give up her elvish life to marry Aragorn and might indicate that theoretically she might have done otherwise . If a silvan elf could marry a mortal and remain Elvish (and presumably pass into the West or return to her own people after it seems unlikely that Arwen would have to if Elrond were prepared to delay his departure (and thus the time of choice ) while Aragorn lived.

If you consider the other Elven/mortal unions that were desired (by one party at least) but not realised (Andreth/Aegnor & Turin/Finduilas), then the sundering of fates that is the main argument against. I don't have Morgoth's Ring with me but in The Silmarillion, Gwindor says " It is not fitting that the Elder children of Iluvatar should wed with the Younger; nor is it wise for they are brief, and soon pass, to leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. Neither will fate suffer it, unless it be once or twice only, for some high cause of doom that we do not perceive. But this man is not Beren". Now admittedly Gwindor was not to my knowledge in the confidence of the Valar but he was on the money in other matters.

Fate did suffer the union of Imrazor and Mithrellas for no higher purpose that to illustrate the ennobling qualities of even lesser elven bloodlines and to provide in Imrahil (always a favourite minor character of mine) an example of how Denethor should have been both as a viceroy and kinsman to Faramir. I find it highly unlikely that such nobility should have in it's origins a forced marriage even if a silvan elf (unlike one Eldar) could survive such an event let alone bear children against her will.

Earendil gets the choice because he goes to Aman. Mandos (whose words, one imagines, have more clout in such matters than most) says, "Shall mortal man step living on the Undying lands and yet live?" The matter only is discussed and decided because of Ulmo's challenge. This begs the question, what did Mandos decide with regard to Dior (and most likely Elured and Elurin) when they arrived in his halls before this time when he was presumably acting on his own initiative. He seems to have the default position that it is the father's race that counts in which case Dior was mortal. Yet he had an Elven wife and it is reasonable to assume that if he had been given the choice he would have chosen to be of the Eldar for her sake at least as Earendil did for the sake of Elwing. I do think it is highly unlikely in the light of the concepts of marriage expressed in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar - and of his own Catholicism, that Tolkien would have allowed any who had the choice. to choose a different eternal fate to their spouse.

Yes it can be hard to actually carry out things we have long committed to however wholeheartedly and it must have been particularly hard for Arwen that she did not suffer the physical decline that reconciles the mind to death as release, and that Aragorn gave up his life of his own will but it would subvert the whole thing is she had some get out clause at that stage.

As for Elrond learning of Arwen's choice the next words reconcile it to the earlier reference "When Elrond learned the choice of his daughter, he... found the doom long feared none the easier to endure.... I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending." Arwen was born in the image of Luthien and to Elrond, farsighted beyond the usual Elvish intuition regarding their children, history repaeting must have always been a possibility - especially when she hadn't found a nice elf-boy to settle down with after a few thousand years... .

In the same paragraph Elrond says that Arwen "shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause". Elrond presumably knows the score and there is no possibility expressed that Arwen could marry Aragorn without choosing mortality. Aragorn also says to Arwen if she cleaves to him she must renounce the Twilight .

However though the choice is made it is only absolute when the condidtions are fulfilled and marriage has taken place for if Aragorn had died in the War of the Ring surely Arwen could have sailed West . After all Arwen's "I will cleave to you Dunadan..|" is expressing intent/desire.

The question of why the choice of mortality is binding on descendents while that of being immortal is not is also answered to my satisfaction at least in Appendix A "the Valar were not permitted to take from them (the Numenoreans) the Gift of Men. From the immortal perspective, release from the burden of immortal life was such a precious gift that anyone with the slightest entitlement to it should not be denied the opportunity. This certainly makes sense when you consider that Elrond's children were overwhelmingly immortal by bloodlines.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Dior is a very interesting case, especially since it could be argued that Luthien was already mortal when she and Beren actually married. But it's plain that the Valar hadn't really thought things through when Earendil turned up! (Unfortunately Dior was only 36 when he was killed, so we have no idea whether he had the "youth of the Eldar" or not).


According to Manwe in QS (1937):

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.

This would imply that Dior and his sons were accounted Men. But would the folk of Doriath have accepted such a short-lived king, even if he was Luthien's son?

I do find it interesting that the choice was explicitly given to Earendil's sons, Elrond and Elros, and that that choice was extended to Elrond's children- but not to Elros'!

[Galin]

And if the QS idea is held to be true, then Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are automatically mortals to my mind... that is, if Elrond or Elros chooses immortality here he will yet have automatically mortal children with respect to death (as they will still have some measure of mortal blood).

My theory is that the Children of Elrond must at least be extended the choice in order to make Elrond's choice fair to begin with (and the same with Elros had he chosen an immortal fate).

In this way, no person with mortal blood (in any measure) is automatically withheld from a mortal death -- release from the Circles of the World and time. And no children are automatically sundered from their parent if that parent chooses immortality.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

And if the QS idea is held to be true, then Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir are automatically mortals to my mind... that is, if Elrond or Elros chooses immortality here he will yet have automatically mortal children with respect to death

Well, yes: but of course in 1937 Elrond's children hadn't been invented yet! And Arwen having a Choice to make became an essential element in the strory of Aragorn as it developed.

I think therefore that your 'revised rule' pretty well sums up what Tolkien came to believe as a result of the LR, modifying what had been a firm rule before he started it.

Back to the Dioscuri: it's interesting that to the extent they are described, they do not "pass" as Elves: "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less somber is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell."

And then there is the passage from a draft of Appendix A, describing their role at the Field of Celebrant: "In the forefront of the charge they saw two great horsemen, clad in grey, unlike all the others, and the Orcs fled before them." I don't want to lean too heavily on a single adjective, but one could infer that if they were "great" even among the tall Northmen, that the brethren were quite large persons indeed, more "Mannish" than "Elvish" in build, if you will.


By the way, if anyone cares, Arwen and her brothers were not half-elves, but 78.125-percent-elves:

18.75% Men (3/16)
17.1875% Noldor (11/64)
7.8125% Vanyar (5/64)
53.125% Teleri (17/32)
3.125% Maiar (1/32)

Elrond himself was a nine-sixteenths-elf.

(I didn't distinguish between Sindar and Teleri of Aman because of Celeborn's uncertain status)

[Mithalwen]

Ah but don't forget that Legolas was comparing them to a bunch of hairy Dunedain rangers dressed for the worst that the wild could throw at them, and with the noted height of their maternal grandparents they were unlikely to be short by the measure of the elves - however I expect the mannish blood may well have made them more strapping than the average elf... though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

though this now leads me to envisage Arwen as a jolly-hockeysticks Betjemanesque heroine...

.........complete with twin-potlid-breastplate, horned helmet and spear....

[PrinceOfTheHalflings]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Back to the Dioscuri: it's interesting that to the extent they are described, they do not "pass" as Elves: "And have you marked the brethren Elladan and Elrohir? Less somber is their gear than the others', and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.")

I think you could easily interpret that description the opposite way. They stand out from the Rangers, but the Rangers are not Elves. The description says Elladan and Elrohir are "fair and gallant as Elven-lords" - that certainly sounds as if they look like Elves to me!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The hypothesis (that E&E are simply Elves and have no choice) founders on the data:

These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.

But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

'... and the choice must soon be laid on your (Elrond's) children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'

The end of (Elrond's) sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.

Moreover, Manwe's declaration cited earlier, although admittedly written before Elrond's children were invented, noetheless undergirds a fundamental dogma of Tolkien's 'theology:' the Gift of Men can never be taken away. Elrond's children, since they have Mannish blood, would by default be Men but for their special dispensation; and in all events they must have the option of becoming fully Men.

It doesn't matter that E&E are 78% Elvish by descent- the Mannish element in their lineage cannot be ignored or denied, save by their own free choice.

[Galin]

I agree with WCH on that -- and there's another letter too, where Tolkien states that Arwen was not an Elf. But The Letters of JRR Tolkien is proving a mixed bag for me on this issue in general. Also, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the two mentions (and only mentions?) that confirm Elladan and Elrohir remained behind after Elrond sailed were only added to the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings in the 1960s.

Not that that proves anything of course, but if true might give a better idea of the chronology anyway.

[Mithadan]

One last post to this thread, then I will say no more on this issue. The problem I have here is not that I necessarily disagree with the textual analyses that have been ably set forth by various members here. Rather, my issue is simply that one of the great appeals that Middle Earth has for me is its internal inconsistency, and here is one point where it is inconsistent. The children of Elrond and Elros all genetically possess elements of Mannish blood, assuming the "science of genetics" bears any real relevancy to the interpretation of mythology. To me, this means they should all be treated the same unless there is a good reason to the contrary.

The analysis I set forth in my last post explains the state of matters as we see them in LoTR. The problem is that the solution I outline is not what Tolkien appears to have settled upon. Rather, he treats the children of Elros and Elrond differently because... well just because. The importance of the Eru's gift cannot be the answer for why similarly situated persons are treated differently; Elrond's children have less Mannish blood than those of Elros, but based upon the analyses of multiple posters here, the presence of any Mannish blood is significant.

I suggest that genetics and the presence of physical Mannish blood does not determine this issue, else both sets of cousins would have possessed the choice regardless of the choice of their sires. Further Tolkien, in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar makes it clear that "[f]rom the beginning the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits" The fëar of Men and Elves determine their fundamental nature, not their hroar or bodies. The fëar of Elves "far excelled over the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."

It is the fëar that determine the nature of Men and Elves, not their bodies or their blood. When Half-Elven make their choice, it is a change to the spirits not to their bodies. So genetics has nothing to do with the effect of a Half-Elf's choice over the nature of their offspring. Elros' fëa was mortal as was his wife's and, accordingly, his children's spirits were Mannish. Elrond and Celebrian's fëar were Elvish. Why should the spirits of their children be otherwise. This is the problem I have here.

[Aiwendil]

Mithadan wrote:

The problem is that the solution I outline is not what Tolkien appears to have settled upon. Rather, he treats the children of Elros and Elrond differently because... well just because. The importance of the Eru's gift cannot be the answer for why similarly situated persons are treated differently; Elrond's children have less Mannish blood than those of Elros, but based upon the analyses of multiple posters here, the presence of any Mannish blood is significant.

I disagree, and would respectfully suggest that your argument here misses the point of the 'Gift of Eru' argument. You ask why Elrond's children are treated differently from Elros's; in other words, why is there an asymmetry between the cousins? The answer is that it's because there's an asymmetry between Men and Elves. Elros's children "ought" to be human, because both of their parents are. Elrond's children "ought" to be Elves, because both of their parents are. But the rule is that the Gift of Eru cannot be forcibly taken away from anyone with any Mannish heritage. So Elrond's children must be given the choice. Elros's children are not given the choice because there is no analogous rule to the effect that one with Elvish heritage cannot have immortality taken away. They have Elvish blood, but due to the asymmetry of the Gift of Eru, Elvish blood does not necessitate the option of immortality, whereas Mannish blood does necessitate the option of mortality.

One can perhaps dispute that account by calling into question the validity of Tolkien's statements in Letters and elsewhere, but I do not think one can make the charge of inconsistency in it. It coheres and it agrees with what is said in LotR.

It is the fëar that determine the nature of Men and Elves, not their bodies or their blood. When Half-Elven make their choice, it is a change to the spirits not to their bodies. So genetics has nothing to do with the effect of a Half-Elf's choice over the nature of their offspring. Elros' fëa was mortal as was his wife's and, accordingly, his children's spirits were Mannish. Elrond and Celebrian's fëar were Elvish. Why should the spirits of their children be otherwise. This is the problem I have here.

Well, one might first of all note that Tolkien stressed that there is a strong connection between a fea and its hroa. One can influence the other, and vice versa. And clearly the differences between Men and Elves were not solely spiritual.

But as for your question - is there necessarily anything problematic with the fea of the child differing from the fear of the parents? Certainly, there's no logical impossibility involved there. And, apparently, Tolkien didn't feel that there was a metaphysical impossibility either.

There's also an interesting supposition behind your argument here: that there are Elvish fear and there are Mannish fear, and that Elvishness or Mannishness is an intrinsic, perhaps unalterable, attribute of the spirit. I think we must question to what extent this is true. Yes, human spirits leave Arda after death while Elvish spirits do not; but does this imply any particular difference between the two classes of spirits themselves, beyond the difference in their ultimate fates? It seems plain, at least, that the Elvishness or Mannishness of a fea could be changed: Luthien provides an unambiguous case of an Elvish spirit becoming Mannish. When this happened, Luthien's soul, her will, her consciousness did not change. She had the same fea before and after; only its fate was different.

I suggest that a fea itself is not intrinsically Elvish or Mannish, though in most cases a particular fate is attached to it the moment it enters the world, due to its parentage. But that fate could be altered (as in Luthien's case); and in the case of Elrond's children, to whom the choice was granted even before they were born, neither fate would be prescribed to the fea when it first entered the world.

[Mithadan]

1

[sneha]

I believe the choice cannot be take back. She chose to be a mortal and now she had to abide by it. As for Elladan and Elrohir I hope they went back to Valinor else it would be tragic for Elrond to lose all three of his children. I can understand their desire to delay the choice. Their sister and foster brother were in Arda plus it was the land of their birth. Just like Celeborn who wasn't weary of middle earth yet. Even Tharanduil's people were in Arda for some time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's perhaps worth observing that Tolkien was in the habit of expressing himself, for brevity, in an elliptical form which appeared more definitive on the surface than his actual intent; this is especially true of his frequernt use of 'rhetorical hyperbole' ias in "fairest," "greatest," "Eldest" etc. Given that this is Tolkien, again writing in compressed form (and the appendices as published were decidely 'comprerssed' from his point of view!), "depart with him [Elrond]" doesn't I think necessarily mean that they had to get on the same boat. Would it "count" if they sailed on another ship in the same flotilla? One that weighed anchor a day later? A week? And if that, then why not within the same 'yen' (144 solar years)? In the Elvish view of time, that's practically the next day.

(Incidentally my own inclination, given the Twins' fierce attachment to their mother, is that they did sail West to be with her again).

[Galin]

Very good points WCH, and I've always maintained that this was open to the interpretation you are suggesting.

Still, in Appendix A [Tale of Aragorn and Arwen] Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

But that all said, it could go either way, yes.

When Tolkien wrote that the end of the sons of Elrond is not told [the letter] he seems to have meant [at the time] that the reader isn't even going to know if they stayed or sailed with Elrond. It is only much later [I think], in the second edition of the 1960s, that he 'told' this much: that they remained when Elrond sailed.

However it seem to be the case that JRRT intended to tell that much in 1955 too:

'For I shall be surprised if the King doesn't bid us to his great house by Lake Evendim. And there will be Elladan and Elrohir too, who still live at Rivendell -- and with them will be Elves.'

The Epilogue, Sauron Defeated

So there goes my earlier theory that Tolkien, only years after this letter was written [and thus possibly forgotten], had decided to at least let the reader know they had remained after Elrond sailed.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galin

Elrond agrees with Aragorn that the choice must 'soon' be laid upon his children, to 'part' with him or with Middle-earth. Elrond answered 'Truly', and 'Soon, as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass.' And Elrond's passing Over Sea seems a rather notable event. Of The Rings Of Power even relates that the last of the Noldor set sail Over Sea 'and latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready...'

Granted this is possibly contradicted in The Lord of the Rings somewhat, as it is stated in Note on the Shire Records that Elrond's sons 'long remained' with some High-elven folk [which I think could still refer to Sindar even if High Elves usually referred to the Noldor] -- in any case this seems like a notable, historic departure. So why not now? The sons have had a long time to choose, and Elrond's 'soon' still seems to refer to a coming day of departure in which technically the sons will be 'parted' from him.

The ambiguity is certainly there. I consider that the Shire Records could simply be misinformation, as we're left to wonder how the hobbit-author came to that conclusion. Did he go to Rivendell himself and speak with Elladan and Elrohir?

In any case, as is noted the departure of Elrond would seem to indeed be a monumental event in the half-elven history. Arwen was forced to choose then, and not only because of her intended mortal husband. The indication is that had she not wedded Aragorn she would have gone with her father. Did she want that? Was Elrond not giving her a choice in the matter, unless she chose mortality to be with Aragorn? Surely that was not it. If so, old Elessar might have kept it in the back of his mind that his wife could have had ulterior motives for marrying him, quite apart from Lúthien-like love. Why could she not delay her choice, if her brothers could?

I also would wonder just how long is enough time to choose, for the brethren. The Third Age ending, and the Dominion of Men beginning would seem an optimal time to make the decision. Just what else would they have been waiting for?

[Alfirin]

Another point to consider would be Eldarion, or more accurately, Aragorn's heir. As you pointed out, there really is no reason why Arwen HAS to renounce her immortality in order to marry Aragorn by any sort of law. Elves marrying mortal men is incredibly rare, but it's not exactly uncheard of (especially in Arwen's own family) So why is it so imperative for Arwen to be mortal to marry him. I think the matter of the heir is at least part. Arwen presumably knows Aragron wants kids (or more accurately, that one of the fundamental needs of any king is to have an heir) Elves, we know tend to have kids pretty late in life (even by thier extended standards) It may be that, as and elf, Arwen isn't OLD enough to have kids, and wont be within the time span she can reasonably assume Aragorn to live (in other words the difference between being an elf and being a human may be deeper than "one is immortal, one isn't). And come to think of it, if Arwen COULD have kids with Aragorn as an elf, what does that leave those kids? We know that mortal Arwen and mortal Aragorn resulted in mortal Eldarion. If Arwen had still been elf, where would that have left him. Another person with the choice, except NOW the choice is between immortality and rule of the West. We've already seen what the craving for immortality did to the Men of the Numenorian line, imagine what might happen if one of them GOT it; a king of Gondor/Arnor who knew he could basically rule FOREVER. That's probably more tempatation than any human mind can stand without going mad (He'd probably basically turn into a Ringwraith without ring.)