Inevitability of death (revisited)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

1. part of the nature of Men as designed by Eru, regardless of any sin they may have committed, and
2. something that may have been tainted, but untainted its name would have been good (see above); which I take to mean that even if it's been tainted, it's still the best way for Eru to achieve the good he has in mind for Mankind.
To me, none of this sounds like orthodox Christianity. Now we know that Tolkien himself claimed LotR to be a thoroughly Christian book ('consciously in the revision', etc.) - which makes me wonder whether
a) there's any kind of loophole in Christian theology that allows for Tolkien's view of death to be considered as orthodox, or
b) this is a case of the truths of his heart prevailing over the truths of his faith.

One thing that should probably be noted about Tolkien's comment about the LotR being a consciously Catholic work in the revision is that this comment does not claim to apply to the Silmarillion, which is where the Creation of the World and the Fall of Man has its recounting. As far as the LotR is concerned, these two subjects are left pretty much untouched. And as far as those two subjects go, they were written, and little changed thereafter--especially the Music of the Ainur, back in the Book of Lost Tales era.

Of course, it is also true that Tolkien saw LotR as part of a cohesive legendarium with the Silmarillion, but it strikes me as a bit unfair to look for the same sort of theology in both works given the different times in which they were written. While it is true that the Silmarillion was substantially continued after the completion of the LotR, it was mostly a rewriting of what had already been written, and the few radically new parts (that aren't expansions of old tales, such as the Narn i Chín Húrin) ARE, in fact, typically attempts to reconcile the old Silm with a new, different, worldview. The "Athrabeth" is certainly the main theological attempt, but I think it could be argued that the attempted cosmological changes involved in the Melkor essays included in Morgoth's Ring (HoME X) could be considered in the same light, though their focus is more on reconciling with a different physical worldview--that of the round world.

It is interesting, perhaps, that this revision to reconcile with a round world (the "real world") coincided with an attempt to reconcile with a Christian world (again, for Tolkien, the "real world"). I think it is also worth noting that while these changes proved to be almost too much to handle for the Silmarillion, there is really very little about them that would not be manageable for the LotR, barring perhaps a bit of the Appendices--meaning that the LotR is, in at least one sense, fundamentally reconcilable with the "real world"--Christian and round.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

the Silmarillion, which is where the Creation of the World and the Fall of Man has its recounting

Creation, yes; Fall, no (unless you include Adanel's story in the Athrabeth). All we are told about the prehistory of Men in the published Silmarillion are vague rumours about a shadow the Edain sought to escape - as is to be expected from the elvo-centric perspective of the work.

And as far as those two subjects go, they were written, and little changed thereafter--especially the Music of the Ainur, back in the Book of Lost Tales era.

Not quite so. Remember, this thread is about Tolkien's attitude towards death, especially the concept of death as the Gift of Ilúvatar - of which, IIRC, there is little trace, if any, in BoLT. (Actually, BoLT has some very curious and rather primitive ideas about the post-mortal fate of Men - including, unless my memory deceives me, those damned by Mandos being ferried to Angband for torture; not to forget the post-mortem deification of Túrin and Nienóri and Túrin's role in the Last Battle, which survived to reappear in several later stages of the Legendarium.)
Unfortunately, I don't own the relevant volumes of HoME, so I can't pinpoint when the idea of the Gift first appeared. When was the first version of the Ainulindale after that in BoLT written, and does it contain anything of the sort?

Anyway - while I admit that I've taken a rather diachronic approach in my arguments, I don't think I've been unfair to Tolkien. The concept of death as the Gift is present (though not prominent) in LoTR - Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:

For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.

So my questions do pertain to LotR, not only to the Silmarillion and later writings.

You're right, of course, about the intention of Athrabeth and the late essays in Morgoth's Ring. Whether or not the Silmarillion would have been improved by the changes Tolkien projected is a question of taste - I, for one, prefer the making of the Sun and Moon from the last blossom/fruit of Telperion and Laurelin.

the "real world"--Christian and round

No comment.

Raynor: Felix peccatum and felix culpa - yes, of course; but felix mors???

the coming of Christ in christianity which is uniquely important not just for humans but for all creation[my emphasis, Pw], and the fulfillment of the role of creation in Ea through Men and their gifts

Please elaborate.