Dwarves are not heroes?

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting thread on that Hobbit comment, a couple of points to throw into the mix;

In the translator conceit The Hobbit was written by Bilbo so perhaps reflects more of his personal stereotypes than otherwise. Saying that, Thorin of couse did prove to be a hero in the end.

Also Thorin's gang were a party of exiles, perhaps too used to living on their wits (and occasional coal-mining) to throw themselves too wholeheartedly into danger. Notably Gimli is the classic heroic Dwarven exception. One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.

I guess the contrast might be between, on the one hand, if you like, a 'hasty' hero such as Eomer, who is suspicious of Aragorn at first but is soon convinced and, you get the impression, would go into battle at the drop of a hat (OK I'm thinking slightly of Cohen the Barbarian and d'Artagnan too here). On the other hand we have the Dwarves, who are capable of heroic deeds but it seems only when they have chosen to do such things.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

interesting thread on that Hobbit comment, a couple of points to throw into the mix;

In the translator conceit The Hobbit was written by Bilbo so perhaps reflects more of his personal stereotypes than otherwise. Saying that, Thorin of couse did prove to be a hero in the end.

Also Thorin's gang were a party of exiles, perhaps too used to living on their wits (and occasional coal-mining) to throw themselves too wholeheartedly into danger. Notably Gimli is the classic heroic Dwarven exception. One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.

I guess the contrast might be between, on the one hand, if you like, a 'hasty' hero such as Eomer, who is suspicious of Aragorn at first but is soon convinced and, you get the impression, would go into battle at the drop of a hat (OK I'm thinking slightly of Cohen the Barbarian and d'Artagnan too here). On the other hand we have the Dwarves, who are capable of heroic deeds but it seems only when they have chosen to do such things.

Do you possibly mean Conan the Barbarian? Terry Prachett's Cohen always seemed to be to be a very cautious prudent Barbarian when it came to battling, that's pretty much how he became the 87 year old Barbarian he is <g>

[Pitchwife]

[QUOTE=Rumil;591845]One thing that comes to mind is that Gimli was a Noble of a settled dwarven society, therefore expected to lead in the fighting, whereas Thorin and co., though descended from Nobility, aren't currently in charge of anyone much, so have no expectations of heroicism put upon them.
QUOTE]

If I remember correctly, Thorin was Durin's Heir, i.e. if not for Smaug, he would have been King under the Mountain (and if not for Durin's Bane, King of Khazad-dûm). As far as Dwarves are concerned, is doesn't get any nobler than that.
Gimli was descended from a junior branch of the same family, and he and Glóin his father lived with Thorin's lot before Erebor was resettled.
Thorin certainly put expectations of heroicism upon himself. The Quest of Erebor (UT) tells us that when he and Gandalf talked about dealing with Smaug, Thorin was all for war & battle, and Gandalf had a hard job convincing him of the burglary approach.

[Rumil]

Evenin' All,

indeed Pitchwife, agree that Thorin ranked as high as any Dwarf, and considerably outranked Gimli, who ranked pretty high himself.

I'm not sure I'm convincing myself of this point, but I think there may be a difference between a hero from a settled culture, who is in charge of, say, a unit of soldiers, like Eomer or Faramir, and Thorin's situation, sure he was a Noble, but a noble in exile, living on his wits and without any large force to command. In the first situation, the expectation put upon the leader is one of heroicness, in the second, the leader is only head of a small group of companions, and I think that may be rather different.

I agree that its difficult to square Thorin's orginal gung-ho attitude with the Dwarves' general hanging-back, standing on one leg and looking uncomfortable when Bilbo was about to explore the secret passage. This is however Bilbo's point of view, perhaps the Dwarves thought that Bilbo thought that they would cut him out of the treasure if he did not burgle it personally? They were sticklers for contracts after all. Or more sensibly, that they would likely make more noise than a Hobbit and bring disaster on the whole enterprise. Perhaps some noxious emanation of Smaug was making everyone extra-fractious and selfish at this stage?

Alfirin I'm almost sure I did mean Conan, typo or Freudian slip? nicely spotted!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I think there may be a difference between a hero from a settled culture, who is in charge of, say, a unit of soldiers, like Eomer or Faramir, and Thorin's situation

True; I overlooked/neglected this part of your argument.

As for Bilbo being sent to explore on his own, I think his ability to move noiselessly was one of the reasons, the other being the fact that Smaug, who had never met a hobbit, wouldn't be able to identify his smell - these were the reasons why the Dwarves had agreed to hire him in the first place. (The magic ring proved rather handy, too, but I can't remember whether the Dwarves knew about it and its properties when they arrived at the Mountain.)

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(The magic ring proved rather handy, too, but I can't remember whether the Dwarves knew about it and its properties when they arrived at the Mountain.)

Bilbo told Thorin about the Ring when the Dwarves were trapped in the Elf King's dungeons. So they knew that Bilbo was silent, invisible, and unfamiliar to Smaug. Though I think it all comes down to duty. Bilbo was hired to be a burglar and was going to be paid handsomely for it.

As has been stated before, the Dwarves took the trouble to procure a signed contract with Bilbo in order for him to be paid, but this also insures that he does his job.