The Way We War

[davem]

Originally Posted by Farael

Which leads to organized, formation-style fighting, which conflicts with the idea of a bezerker.

Nope. People have been fighting with 'long' weapons (like spears) for a very long time. The point of a long weapon is that it is designed to prevent your enemy getting close to you. It has more momentum in a swing - & you don't have to hold a spear or pole-weapon by the end furthest away from the blade. You can hold it part way down the shaft.

Poleaxes appear to have been very versatile weapons, with the ability to crush, cut or thrust. Some poleaxes even sported a spike on the butt of the haft, as illustrated in the various works of the famous fencing master Hans Talhoffer. In other words, the poleaxe (or fussstreiaxe, or bec-de-corbin or Lucerne Hammer or whatever the modern enthusiast wants to call these marvels of engineering) was a combination of the best of what several different weapons had to offer. It is worth noting that the poleaxe was very well-suited to deal with heavily armed opponents which seemed to abound after the end of the 14th century. There is little wonder then that poleaxes were employed both on the dueling ring, during knightly bouts and during pitched battles. http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_poleaxe.html

Any kind of pole weapon would be designed for use against a specific enemy - if you were confronting riders you would have a weapon with a longer shaft, if an enemy on foot it would be shorter. Men at arms would train from early childhood with different weapons & were highly proficient. A pole weapon could be used in many ways - not simply the obvious one of swinging blows to sever head or limbs. You have a spear with the top spike, a staff weapon, a hook for bringing down an opponent, as well as a 'short' axe if you hold the thing part way down the shaft. And the whole point of a longer weapon is that you don't let your opponent get as close as you're envisioning. Your enemy would also probably be using a longer weapon,

Pole axe fight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgOrHKfYuxk

[Farael]

Originally Posted by davem

And the whole point of a longer weapon is that you don't let your opponent get as close as you're envisioning. Your enemy would also probably be using a longer weapon,

Yes, but how many enemies can you keep away at the time? One? Two? As many as they come? (This is an honest question, I BELIEVE you can only keep one or a couple at bay, but I could be wrong)

In almost all situations, the "good guys" (Dwarves, men of Gondor, elves...) were heavily out-numbered. If each acted as an individual, they'd be overwhelmed by sheer numbers but if they kept together and acted as a unit in formation they'd have a chance to defend themselves from an enemy that was (very likely) using poorer weapons and armour as well as (possibly) less trained.

So, if a dwarf with an axe can keep three or four orcs at bay (or seven or eight) then I'll concede the point, I started off my discussion by saying I didn't know much about medieval fighting.

Morthoron, Michelangelo may have been a very special person, and as I said before, Thorin was the son of a ring-bearer and we know that the rings brought out the worst of the dwarves.

Even if Thorin never wore a ring himself, you'd expect him to learn less-than-stellar behaviours from his parents, eh? So I wouldn't say he is representative of dwarves as a whole.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Farael

In almost all situations, the "good guys" (Dwarves, men of Gondor, elves...) were heavily out-numbered. If each acted as an individual, they'd be overwhelmed by sheer numbers but if they kept together and acted as a unit in formation they'd have a chance to defend themselves from an enemy that was (very likely) using poorer weapons and armour as well as (possibly) less trained.

.

I think you're getting too caught up in specifics. Assuming Dwarvish were like medieval human armies I'd assume they would vary their tactics to suit the circumstances. If attacked en masse they would surely have formed some kind of shield wall to fight behind. But circumstances are all. I think you're also forgetting how quickly battles would descend into free-for alls. Once the adrenalin starts pumping & the bodies start piling up (do you know that at Towton time out was called more than once to allow the bodies to be removed from the field as it was impossible to fight for all the corpses?) things can get chaotic very swiftly. add to that weather conditions (there's a story - which I can source if you like - of a troop of men at arms frying in their armour as a result of repeated lightning strikes during a thunder storm. Towton was fought during a blizzard, & some battles would take place in fog so thick that it was impossible to see more than a few feet), disease, lack of ordinance, incompetent (or dead) comanders, & you move further & further from the kind of 'perfect' conditions you seem to imagine.

[Farael]

Hmmm, you do have a point there. I still think the Bezerker aura comes from non-Tolkien sources, but I don't really have any evidence for either position. No, Thorin is ONE example. Furthermore, if we take Davem's word, battles grew rather chaotic and fighting desperately for one's life does not really qualify as going bezerk.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Farael

Morthoron, Michelangelo may have been a very special person, and as I said before, Thorin was the son of a ring-bearer and we know that the rings brought out the worst of the dwarves.

Even if Thorin never wore a ring himself, you'd expect him to learn less-than-stellar behaviours from his parents, eh? So I wouldn't say he is representative of dwarves as a whole.

Guilt by proximity? Hmmm...I suppose that would depend on whether you were an adherent of Hobbes or Locke. I would think Thorin was fairly representative of the Dwarvish aristocracy, as he was not a run-of-the-mill Dwarf, even while in exile. But then he was not an inherently evil Dwarf, as were those that did commerce with Orcs, or allied with Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't know that even Thorin went "full berserker." I get the impression that the Thirteen drove through the Goblin-host in a tight wedge formation (or at least as tight as axe-swinging would allow). Tolkien of course was capable of envisioning such a formation, as the Numenorean dirnaith was of the type.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I don't know that even Thorin went "full berserker."

Never go full berserker, man!

[Kuruharan]

Somebody else has pondered this question...

Link

Interesting that he agrees with my initial assessment regarding the usefulness of shields, although not so much on the specific swords dwarves should favor.

However, I don't agree with the video in regards to strength as I think dwarves in Middle-earth are stronger than humans, which might make the big axes and hammers a viable option at least as far as damage potential. What I question is the efficiency/safety of using massive axes and warhammers as the wielder exposes oneself in their use. You don't need to make your opponent burst into ludicrous gibs through hitting them with a blow of massive strength. You need to inflict a disabling wound to them while reserving your own strength for the remainder of the fight.

[Boromir88]

Thanks for bumping an old thread of yours Kuru. First time I've read it and I'm not sure if any of this will provide additional insight but figured I'd just toss up everything I've looked through for consideration.

First to Morth's point about the dwarves of the Iron Hills selection of the mattock. It wasn't just a tool they grabbed in haste to help Thorin, but agree with Morth, their preferred weapon of choice. At the battle of Azanulbizar, the dwarves of the Iron Hills come again with mattocks:

...until at last the people of the Iron Hills turned the day. Coming late and fresh to the field the mailed warriors of Nain, Gror's son, drove through the Orcs to the very threshold of Moria, crying "Azog! Azog!" as they hewed down with their mattocks all who stood in their way.~Appendix A: Durin's Folk

Now, Dain Ironfoot is noted for having a red axe and hewing off the head of Azog. But mattocks weren't just a tool the dwarves of the Iron Hills grabbed in haste. It's noted it took three years for the Dwarves to gather their strength after Azog killed Thror.

Aragorn is awed by Gimli's skill with an axe during the battle of the Hornburg:

"He is stout and strong," said Aragorn. "Let us hope that he will escape back to the caves. There he would be safe for a while. Safer than we. Such a refuge would be to the liking of a dwarf."
...
"If he wins back the caves, he will pass your count again," laughed Aragorn. "Never did I see an axe so wielded."

For what it's worth, when Forlong comes with his men from Lossarnach:

Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men, well armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor.~Minas Tirith

If Imrahil had a bit of Elvish blood in him...maybe the Men of Lossarnach had dwarvish blood! Ok, that's quite a stretch, but then again you have the cries of Forlong the Fat, that are all too reminiscent of Bombur's notable girth.

And as far as whether the dwarves fought more berserk-like or more like a Roman unit. Is it possible to fight both in a berserk frenzy and as an organized unite? The Dwarves a tight, secretive bunch. They guard their language and don't even reveal their true names upon their deaths:

Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin. Their own secret and inner names, their true names, the Dwarves have never revealed to anyone of alien race. Not even on their tombs do they inscribe them.~Appendix F

Such a close-knit and guarded race, that has protected their language from all others, suggests they would be an organized fighting unit in war as well. But, reading about the Battle of Azanulbizar in the Appendix, several times wrath, anger, vengeance is mentioned about the dwarves. It could be this is just one war of the many Dwarves have fought, so it's kind of an outlier because of the special circumstances, with the death of Thror by the hand of Azog.

When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could find from Gundabad to the Gladden. Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength, and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain.~Appendix A: Durin's Folk

Is it possible to be such a close-knit race, that even in their wrath and anger, Dwarves remain an organized fighting force? Although, they achieved victory through strength, matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger...It's all rather puzzling. Perhaps as in history, try as we might to fight battles in an orderly, organized manner, they turn into free-for-alls. And in free-for-alls superior weapons, armor and fury might win the day.

Although, I don't think we can look at the dwarves through our own real-life Mannish eyes. The Dwarves have successfully guarded their language and true names as a treasured secret. It's almost like even in their battle-like fury they manage to fight together as a unit. You see, Men have to be trained to fight together in an orderly and organized unit. Dwarves, being a unit is in their nature, it's in their blood, and in their very language that they guard so close.

Your thread title is perfect brilliance Kuru. By the Way We War, I assume you meant at the time, the way Dwarves war. I am no Dwarf, and so I would say the way Dwarves war is incomprehensible to any Man, Elf, or non-dwarf. There is no human equivalence to the way the Dwarves are able to war even in berserk-fury, they remain a family unit.