Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Aiwendil]

It sounds like we are close to an agreement; at least the three of us agree it must be option 1 or 2.

Findegil wrote:

Thinking around three corners I could say that the author of the text wanted to give all the credential he could to Dírhavals sources and thereby had overdone it. By excident or by propose he decievd us to belive at this point that Andvír had communication with Andróg, though we later learn that this is impossible.

So you suggest that the author may be deliberately misleading? I admit this is possible, but I think it is a little bit of a stretch. The 'author' of this text is, after all, the modern editor, i.e. Tolkien, is it not? And in any case, since this is a preface to the Narn, any reader who is succesfully misled into thinking that Androg lived for a long time after the battle will find out otherwise in short order.

I also find the possibility of Beleg communicating with Andvir plausible but not entirely convincing - largely because it seems to me that Beleg would have set out after Turin as quickly as possible and would not have made any other stops. Of course, one could imagine that he happened by chance to meet Andvir on the way.

But I keep coming back to the simple fact that it seems everyone who reads the passage in A&D initially and unhesitatingly interprets it to mean that Androg lived for a significant time after the battle. If this is so, does that not suggest that the wording of the passage favors that interpretation? And if that is so, does it not seem likely that this was the meaning Tolkien intended when he wrote it?

I was browsing through some old discussions earlier (since it's been such a long time since I was heavily involved in the project) and I happened upon a quote from Jallanite connected with the discussion of our principles that has perhaps some relevance here. In talking about the cursory LQ2 revisions, Jallanite wrote:

This better indicates that latest idea is not always latest text than trying to word this into the principles.

In other words, the principles compel us to use Tolkien's 'latest ideas' wherever possible, not necessarily his 'latest text'. In the case of Androg's 'survival', while the letter of the text does not contradict the Narn, it may be that the idea Tolkien was trying to express does.

Add to this the fact that if we delete the reference to Androg's survival, we have either deleted something contradictory (which would be good) or deleted something redundant (since it is told later that he lives past the fighting). I think, therefore, that I now lean toward agreeing with Aran that option 2 is the safest.

[Findegil]

Okay, I can live with both option 2 or option 1 thus I would think it is option 2 if no body will come up to complaine about it.

After that is settled, we may come back to connected questions I brought up earlier:

a) When did Andróg got his wound healed by Beleg?
Christopher Tolkien did place it in CoH not at the raid in the winter, which brought Beleg upon the track of the outlaws but in the spring of that year. Christopher Tolkien did not use that winter raid at all. Do we us it? And if so, is this the oportunity for Andróg to get his wound?
b) Which curse does Andróg utter against Mîm?
Christopher Tolkien used in CoH the one with the arrow in the throat. And reading the Narn he gives that version some more wieght their as well.
c) How does Mîm die in the end?
My image from the text of TT was a blow with Húrins fist that felt the old Dwarf. At least it was not with bow and arrow since it was said Húrin 'smite' him. But then we have the Q30 text and last but not least the note in the plot synopsis given in WH, which do not at all mention how Mîm dies.

Aran prefered for a) the winterraid and Andrógs wounding in that, which I all think is the more logical story.
For question b) and c) Aran suggested to use the alternative curse of lacking a bow at need, but finds the version of Mîm death with an arrow in his throut workable. I think that the arrow in the throut has to be taken since it is Tolkiens lasting image of the traitors death. And I can also not see any good connection about the lake of bow and arrow and the secen of Mîms death. Of course a curse must not become true, but that could be used with both curses.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

I would just like to point out that I did not read the line originally as referring to Andróg's survival, but that could be just because I was already so familiar with the story of his death that I didn't consider it. It doesn't really matter, but I thought I'd say it.

And actually, I have begun to have my doubts about Andróg's healing occurring during the raid. In CoH, Christopher Tolkien puts it at a later date. I must assume he had some reason for doing so, so we must take into account that that version of the healing may be a later one, as in UT he states that there were in fact many versions of the healing.

That said, I do believe we need to retain the winter raid, even if the healing is moved.

[Aiwendil]

Aran wrote:

I would just like to point out that I did not read the line originally as referring to Andróg's survival, but that could be just because I was already so familiar with the story of his death that I didn't consider it. It doesn't really matter, but I thought I'd say it.

Okay, fair enough. But unless I'm mistaken, you read it is saying that Andvir survived and lived for a long time after the battle; so my point stands that we all initially read "survived" to mean something more than "lived for a few more hours".

I need to think a little bit about Findegil's further questions, but I should have some comments by later today.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Okay, fair enough. But unless I'm mistaken, you read it is saying that Andvir survived and lived for a long time after the battle; so my point stands that we all initially read "survived" to mean something more than "lived for a few more hours".

That's true.

[Aiwendil]

Sorry for my unannounced absence (at least it was days and not months this time!).

Findegil wrote:

a) When did Andróg got his wound healed by Beleg?
Christopher Tolkien did place it in CoH not at the raid in the winter, which brought Beleg upon the track of the outlaws but in the spring of that year. Christopher Tolkien did not use that winter raid at all. Do we us it? And if so, is this the oportunity for Andróg to get his wound?
b) Which curse does Andróg utter against Mîm?
Christopher Tolkien used in CoH the one with the arrow in the throat. And reading the Narn he gives that version some more wieght their as well.
c) How does Mîm die in the end?
My image from the text of TT was a blow with Húrins fist that felt the old Dwarf. At least it was not with bow and arrow since it was said Húrin 'smite' him. But then we have the Q30 text and last but not least the note in the plot synopsis given in WH, which do not at all mention how Mîm dies.

a) Here again it would be useful to know whether CT adopted the version in CoH because he concluded that it was the final idea found in the Narn texts or merely for editorial reasons. Certainly in UT it seems to be suggested that the winter raid constitutes the 'main' story insofar as that can be discerned. And again in UT there is no clear suggestion of when and how Androg was to be wounded if not during that raid. In the absence of a 'History of the Narn', I'm inclined to take UT as more authoritative in this instance and therefore to keep the raid and place Androg's wounding and healing there.

b) Here what appears to be the 'main version' in UT (where the alternative curse is, after all, an 'alternative') agrees with what is used in CoH. Therefore, I'm inclined to keep the 'dart in his throat' version of the curse.

c) This is, of course, related to b but should really be considered independently. As Findegil notes, a curse (particularly that of a mere man) need not come true. On the other hand, Findegil also makes a strong case that image of the traitor to Turin’s band dying with an arrow in his throat seems to have been a lasting one. My one reservation about this argument is the ‘alternative curse’. Even if we decide not to follow it, doesn’t the fact that Tolkien considered this as a possibility indicate that Mim’s death by an arrow was not completely fixed in his mind? On the other hand, it may be that he rejected the alternative curse in favor of the ‘main version’ precisely because he wanted Mim’s fate to be the same as that which had been Blodren’s. So I think there is a good (if not perfect) case for having Mim killed by an arrow.

A distinct question is who kills Mim. Here I think we have a good (though again not perfect) case that it must be Hurin. To repeat my earlier summary of the sources:

1. In TT, Hurin smites Mim for his 'evil words'.
2. In Q30, Hurin's men kill Mim 'though Hurin would have stayed them".
3. In the annalistic plot-synopsis for the 'Narn' (partially given in XI with 'Wanderings') there is a brief statement that 'Hurin comes to Nargothrond and slays Mim'.

So Tolkien’s last word on the identity of Mim’s killer seems to be that it was Hurin. We have, then, three possibilities:

1. Hurin kills Mim with an arrow. This would be ideal but it may be difficult to form the actual text.
2. Hurin kills Mim but not with an arrow. Violates both Androg’s curse and (probably) Tolkien’s final idea on how Mim was killed. Very easy to do, since we can largely follow TT. This is what we did previously.
3. One of Hurin’s men kills Mim with an arrow. Violates (probably) Tolkien’s final idea on who killed Mim. Probably easier to accomplish textually than 1 but harder than 2.

I am somewhat inclined toward 1, though I need to look further into how difficult this would be to implement.

[Findegil]

In point a) and b) I agree with Aiwendil.
About c): I will try what we can do with this the text to bring in Aiwendil suggestion of Húrin killing Mîm with an arrow:

§273 (§3b) RD-EX-08 <TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <Sil77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
§275 (§4a) Sil77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.>
<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: 'We come to take what is not thine.' Then said {that dwarf, and his name was }Mîm: 'O {Úrin}[Húrin], little did I think to see thee, a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying:>RD-EX-11.5b Sil77 'Then you shall enjoy your inhertiance no longer,{' said Húrin; '}for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband , and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unkown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6)TT<But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.> TT<‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life{.},'>RD-EX-11.51b<editorial bridge said Húrin. And it is sung that
><Lay of the Children of Húrin {The}the dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[Mîm the petty-dwarf] __ by a beech standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the tree. [5]
He bargained the blood __ of {his brothers}Túrin's band for gold: {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by an {orc-}arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
§279 (§8) RD-SL-05 {And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], ...

I had to take some speech from the Sil77, but I think it reads not that bad.

Respectfully
Findegil