MONEY in middle earth? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

eothain of fenland · 03-07-2009, 06:07 PM

I dont remember hearing much about money in middle earth. what kinds of coins were there? I just know about the pennies, silver pennies, and gold coins in the Shire. Were there any other coins that were equivalent to 5 cents, 25 cents ect...

What were they worth equivalent to modern currency? was a silver penny like a dollar/pound, or what? But i could probably figure it out if i knew how much a loaf of bread cost in middle earth, which is now around 2-5 dollars. Just curious

Thanks

Rumil · 03-07-2009, 06:59 PM

Hi Eothain,

Welcome to the dark and dusty realm of the Barrow Downs!!

Some previous information on money

Money 1

Money 2

Quote:

Bill Ferny's price was twelve silver pennies; and that was indeed at least three times the pony's value in those parts.

Not sure what a pony usually cost in Bree but I had a quick look online and found ponies for £200 (up-to large sums for thoroughbreds!). Bill the pony was in a rough state so would be at the cheap end of the scale, so lets say that very approximately one silver penny = £50. Any pony fanciers in today?? Also quite roughly, an ounce of silver is worth about £10 today (though a 1oz silver coin is 4cm across so is quite chunky).

Quote:

The Numenorean tharni, we are told, was a silver coin, the fourth part of a castar. The tharni may thus have been equivalent to the silver pennies of Eriador. The Elven equivalents for tharni and castar were canath (from kanat-, 'four') and mirian (from mir, 'a jewel or precious thing').

(after davem and mm).

Pitchwife · 03-07-2009, 07:01 PM

HoME XII, The Appendix on Languages:

Quote:

farthing has been used for the four divisions of the Shire, because the Hobbit word tharni was an old word for 'quarter' seldom used in ordinary language, where the word for 'quarter' was tharantîn 'fourth part'. In Gondor tharni was used for a silver coin, the fourth part of the castar.

Unfortunately, we don't know what was the equivalent of a castar in Shire currency, nor what the fourth part of a castar amounted to in smaller coins. If I had to guess, however, I'd bet the hobbits didn't use anything as modern as a decimal system, rather something like the old English pound/shilling/pence thing.
Likewise, we don't know how much a loaf of bread cost in Middle-Earth (not as far as I can remember, anyway), but we know the price of a pony, which was about four silver pennies (FoTR, A Knife in the Dark):

Quote:

Bill Ferny's price was twelve silver pennies; and that was indeed at least three times the pony's value in those parts.

Hope that helps.

(EDIT: cross-posted with Rumil.)

alatar · 03-07-2009, 07:03 PM

Welcome to the Downs, eothain of fenland!

Here's a thread regarding money in the Shire. There's also this one, and another as well.

eothain of fenland · 03-08-2009, 11:44 AM

was there any other type of currency used by the numenorians besides the tharni/cannath and the castar/mirian? was the castar a gold coin? and were there any copper coins that were the fourth part of a tharni?

William Cloud Hicklin · 03-08-2009, 12:54 PM

Given Tolkien's medieval calquing, and the Englishness of the Shire, by silver pennies he almost certainly was thinking of the only silver coin minted in England from the Anglo-Saxons through most of the medieval period, and which was only replaced by the copper 'cartwheel' in Victorian times. The silver penny (denarius) was originally defined as 1/240 of a pound (troy) of sterling silver. Of course, since that time a "pound sterling" has become worth a heckuva lot less than an actual one-lb lump of the stuff .925 fine.

The typical Old English silver penny weighed 1.3 to 1.5 grams, or about 1/4 of the later shilling. The shilling itself was deemed to be the value of a cow in Kent- so 12 silver pennies would have been the going rate for three cows, pretty steep for a broken-down pony.

On the other hand Tolkien may have figured 12 pennies = one shilling.

Rumil · 03-08-2009, 03:40 PM

Hi all.

William CH, I see your point, English silver pennies, nice pics of them here Silver Pennies, (rather Tolkienesque to my thinking). Hmm, so 4 silver pennies per cow? That sort of fits, the same as Bill's recommended retail price!

In a flash of mental arithmetic, Butterbur in fact paid 6 silver pence per pony to Merry in compensation for their theft (ie 18 pence direct plus 12 for Bill the Pony for the 5 ponies; Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail and Bumpkin, White-socks my little lad, but not Old Fatty Lumpkin). This is 50% more than Bill was supposed to be worth, but the hobbits' ponies were surely in good condition.

I think the mirian/castar must have been gold surely?

Was there small change? Well, I don't think there's any specific mention, but Bilbo does give some pennies to the Hobbit children I guess its most likely these were coppers of some sort? (Though I wouldn't put it past Bilbo to scatter a few weeks' wages to the local kids!).

When the Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon he paid 21 pearls and unspecifid amounts of silver for cold porridge, but that was a complete ripoff!

03-07-2009, 06:07 PM	#1
eothain of fenland Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 11	MONEY in middle earth? I dont remember hearing much about money in middle earth. what kinds of coins were there? I just know about the pennies, silver pennies, and gold coins in the Shire. Were there any other coins that were equivalent to 5 cents, 25 cents ect... What were they worth equivalent to modern currency? was a silver penny like a dollar/pound, or what? But i could probably figure it out if i knew how much a loaf of bread cost in middle earth, which is now around 2-5 dollars. Just curious Thanks

03-07-2009, 07:03 PM	#4
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Welcome to the Downs, eothain of fenland! Here's a thread regarding money in the Shire. There's also this one, and another as well. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

03-08-2009, 12:54 PM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,324	Given Tolkien's medieval calquing, and the Englishness of the Shire, by silver pennies he almost certainly was thinking of the only silver coin minted in England from the Anglo-Saxons through most of the medieval period, and which was only replaced by the copper 'cartwheel' in Victorian times. The silver penny (denarius) was originally defined as 1/240 of a pound (troy) of sterling silver. Of course, since that time a "pound sterling" has become worth a heckuva lot less than an actual one-lb lump of the stuff .925 fine. The typical Old English silver penny weighed 1.3 to 1.5 grams, or about 1/4 of the later shilling. The shilling itself was deemed to be the value of a cow in Kent- so 12 silver pennies would have been the going rate for three cows, pretty steep for a broken-down pony. On the other hand Tolkien may have figured 12 pennies = one shilling. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

03-08-2009, 03:40 PM	#7
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Hi all. William CH, I see your point, English silver pennies, nice pics of them here Silver Pennies, (rather Tolkienesque to my thinking). Hmm, so 4 silver pennies per cow? That sort of fits, the same as Bill's recommended retail price! In a flash of mental arithmetic, Butterbur in fact paid 6 silver pence per pony to Merry in compensation for their theft (ie 18 pence direct plus 12 for Bill the Pony for the 5 ponies; Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail and Bumpkin, White-socks my little lad, but not Old Fatty Lumpkin). This is 50% more than Bill was supposed to be worth, but the hobbits' ponies were surely in good condition. I think the mirian/castar must have been gold surely? Was there small change? Well, I don't think there's any specific mention, but Bilbo does give some pennies to the Hobbit children I guess its most likely these were coppers of some sort? (Though I wouldn't put it past Bilbo to scatter a few weeks' wages to the local kids!). When the Man in the Moon Came Down too Soon he paid 21 pearls and unspecifid amounts of silver for cold porridge, but that was a complete ripoff! __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

03-08-2009, 11:44 AM	#5
eothain of fenland Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 11	was there any other type of currency used by the numenorians besides the tharni/cannath and the castar/mirian? was the castar a gold coin? and were there any copper coins that were the fourth part of a tharni?