General changes in TftE - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aran e-Godhellim · 03-04-2009, 06:37 PM

If I may, I would suggest a reverse-change. "ð" to "dh," rather than vice-versa.

"Edh" is after all simply a single letter that represents the voiced dental fricative sound, much as "thorn" was a single letter used for the unvoiced dental fricative sound. In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien quite consitantly used "dh" for ð, just as he used (and we use) "th" for þ. See "Caras Galadhon."

The only reason I see for retaining ð is to give the Quenta Silmarillion a more archaic feel...but if that is the case, should we not be consistant and use þ as well?

Aiwendil · 03-04-2009, 09:49 PM

The dh > ð change we've been implementing was certainly not intended to create a more archaic feel (one of our principles is that personal aesthetic considerations are not to enter into our decisions). Rather, it was motivated by Tolkien's (rather late) apparent decision to use 'ð' rather than 'dh'. (I must admit I never got around to researching whether this was indeed his latest idea, but we had been assuming it was).

You raise a good point, though: 'dh' is used throughout The Lord of the Rings. A similar case is that of 'Orc' vs. 'Ork'; Tolkien's decision to spell it with a 'k' was not taken up by our project because throughout LotR it is spelled with a 'c'. I think the 'dh' issue is the same, and we must revert to 'Maedhros', etc.

Incidentally, it's a little odd that Tolkien apparently decided on a general change of 'dh' to 'ð' but not of 'th' to 'þ', isn't it? Thus we see 'Pengoloð', etc., but never, for example, 'Þingol'.

Aran e-Godhellim · 03-05-2009, 06:07 PM

Well, that's not exactly true; we do see the form "Þindikollo" in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor." But you're right, he didn't usually use that form.

gondowe · 03-06-2009, 03:35 AM

What do you think about {Valmar}[Valimar]

Aiwendil · 03-06-2009, 10:25 AM

Hello, Gondonwe, and welcome to the project!

Thanks for bringing this point up - I don't think we have discussed the name Valmar/Valimar before. It looks to me like this is another case where the spelling in The Lord of the Rings ('Valimar') must take precedence, so I think the change must be made.

Aran e-Godhellim · 03-06-2009, 11:53 AM

I agree.

Findegil · 03-06-2009, 03:24 PM

ð to dh: I do not really agree that we should go back to dh. dh is not as comen in English as is th and therefore it is more necessary to distinguish it from a combination of d and h by simple coincidenc. This is especially true if we consider that at the end of his life Tolkien did well know that his books would certainly find an international readership. Thus even so his elvish names were nromally not translated the reader not very familar with english would probably not be aware of dh representing the voiced dental fricative sound. th on the other hand much better known all ofer the world. Therefore a change form th to þ does not seem to be necessary. Concerning the spelling in LotR I do not think that we should look at the spelling in this book for evidence. Other then in content, I think that, the spelling could much more easily be changed in such cases like dh to ð or Orc to Ork.

Valmar versus Valimar: I wonder if Valimar is the later name?

Respectfully
Findegil

03-06-2009, 03:35 AM	#4
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	Hello all What do you think about {Valmar}[Valimar]

03-04-2009, 06:37 PM	#1
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	If I may, I would suggest a reverse-change. "ð" to "dh," rather than vice-versa. "Edh" is after all simply a single letter that represents the voiced dental fricative sound, much as "thorn" was a single letter used for the unvoiced dental fricative sound. In The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien quite consitantly used "dh" for ð, just as he used (and we use) "th" for þ. See "Caras Galadhon." The only reason I see for retaining ð is to give the Quenta Silmarillion a more archaic feel...but if that is the case, should we not be consistant and use þ as well?

03-04-2009, 09:49 PM	#2
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	The dh > ð change we've been implementing was certainly not intended to create a more archaic feel (one of our principles is that personal aesthetic considerations are not to enter into our decisions). Rather, it was motivated by Tolkien's (rather late) apparent decision to use 'ð' rather than 'dh'. (I must admit I never got around to researching whether this was indeed his latest idea, but we had been assuming it was). You raise a good point, though: 'dh' is used throughout The Lord of the Rings. A similar case is that of 'Orc' vs. 'Ork'; Tolkien's decision to spell it with a 'k' was not taken up by our project because throughout LotR it is spelled with a 'c'. I think the 'dh' issue is the same, and we must revert to 'Maedhros', etc. Incidentally, it's a little odd that Tolkien apparently decided on a general change of 'dh' to 'ð' but not of 'th' to 'þ', isn't it? Thus we see 'Pengoloð', etc., but never, for example, 'Þingol'.

03-05-2009, 06:07 PM	#3
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	Well, that's not exactly true; we do see the form "Þindikollo" in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor." But you're right, he didn't usually use that form.

03-06-2009, 10:25 AM	#5
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Hello, Gondonwe, and welcome to the project! Thanks for bringing this point up - I don't think we have discussed the name Valmar/Valimar before. It looks to me like this is another case where the spelling in The Lord of the Rings ('Valimar') must take precedence, so I think the change must be made.

03-06-2009, 11:53 AM	#6
Aran e-Godhellim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: The Halls of Mandos Posts: 86	I agree.

03-06-2009, 03:24 PM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	ð to dh: I do not really agree that we should go back to dh. dh is not as comen in English as is th and therefore it is more necessary to distinguish it from a combination of d and h by simple coincidenc. This is especially true if we consider that at the end of his life Tolkien did well know that his books would certainly find an international readership. Thus even so his elvish names were nromally not translated the reader not very familar with english would probably not be aware of dh representing the voiced dental fricative sound. th on the other hand much better known all ofer the world. Therefore a change form th to þ does not seem to be necessary. Concerning the spelling in LotR I do not think that we should look at the spelling in this book for evidence. Other then in content, I think that, the spelling could much more easily be changed in such cases like dh to ð or Orc to Ork. Valmar versus Valimar: I wonder if Valimar is the later name? Respectfully Findegil