If Smeagol had not died...?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I believe Gollum would almost instantly die with the Ring destroyed, turn into dust literally. It was the Ring that kept the 500++ years old hobbit alive.

Well, what you lay in front of us here is very well calculated, but I don't accept it so easily. Certainly not Arwen's statement: of course Bilbo was ancient in his age now, and of course now that the Ring was destroyed, it had some effect - on all that's been done with the power of the Rings, we know about that well (Lothlórien etc.). But that does not mean that all of a sudden, the things that were not really closely tied to the Ring (like the Nazgul) would have crumbled into dust in a minute. Bilbo (and Gollum) would just start to age even faster now than usual, true, but I do not think that it would be so dramatic.

As for your quote about dust - I believe Gollum was speaking a bit metaphorically here. He just meant that he would lose the meaning of his life, which would be the same as losing the life itself.

And if hypothetically Gollum would have survived the destruction of the Ring, his future would be bleak: madness and misery. Frodo was unable to recover from the shock of seeing the Ring gone, and he had the Ring for only 18 years. What then about Gollum who possessed the evil thing for 500 years? He was better off in the lava of Orodruin, I believe. At least his shrunken tortured soul has found peace.

All right, I more or less agree with what you say about Gollum in the end - his ending was really probably the most, well, fitting, or how to put it - one still has to consider that it would be really weird for him to survive; let us not forget that in Middle-Earth, there are certain powers at work which seem to kind of balance people's fates, and it does not seem to me - from the way I understand Arda - that Gollum the murderer would get away with it so easily. Please, now I strongly appeal on you not to get me wrong. You have to look at it from the "outside", not from the "inside". The way Gollum died just fits the pattern of the tale of Arda, if he didn't, it would seem weird. That does not mean I am saying he deserved to die, and certainly not by some inner mechanism of law that would work inside Arda. It does not seem to me to work like that. It was just fitting that he died, putting all questions of morality or law away (putting them away = not even thinking about them! Not even thinking whether they do or do not exist). Okay, I am not sure if I made much sense, but I hope the point can be seen at least a bit.

Err... all right, whatever, but what was I saying? Yes, that I agree with the end - but not with the beginning of what you say. I think, like I said, if Gollum let go, he would be able to get rid of it. And was it so that Frodo was really unable to recover from the shock of seeing the Ring gone? Does it really say so?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I think one must defer to Gandalf on the chance of Gollum being redeemed.

I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it. And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many.

And to be redeemed he probably would need to live for a period of time to be
really healed, although most likely in the Shire, not Aman.
However, the Professor's theorizing on an alternate Gollum may be of
some value and not require a post-Ring long-lived Gollum

In Letters # 246 (September, 1963)
(If Sam had had pity on Gollum)

The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach
Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The
interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would
have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and
the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not
have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted
and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design)
to o satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would
have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as in the actual Tale). But
'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for
Frodo's sake and voluntarily have cast himself into the fiery abyss.

[skip spence]

In a perfect world Gollum could have been rehabilitated yes. The real world however (well, let's say the fantasy world of the Shire) would not receive the little baby-eating rascal too well I'm afraid. Frodo was or became rather saintlike and had a special understanding of the hell Gollum had been through because he knew what the ring could do to a fella. Therefore he came somewhat close at making Gollum repent. Had the Shire been populated exclusively by post-ring Frodos there's a chance he'd make it all the way. Unfortunately, not all Shire-folk would show the kind of tolerance required, and once scorned Smeagol would revert to his bad old ways, leading to a downwards spiral and so forth... So no, not a chance. Maybe in Amsterdam...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But that does not mean that all of a sudden, the things that were not really closely tied to the Ring (like the Nazgul) would have crumbled into dust in a minute. Bilbo (and Gollum) would just start to age even faster now than usual, true, but I do not think that it would be so dramatic.

I have to disagree. IMO, Bilbo and Gollum were much more closely tied to the One Ring than the nazgul. Sauron himself was tied to the One. The nazgul were primarily tied to the Nine, not the One. It were the Nine Rings that made them wraiths. It was the One that had prolonged Gollum's life far beyond his normal life span.

The One had melted, and everything done by its power directly crumbled immediately: Sauron became disembodied, Barad-Dur fell to ruin, Bilbo has become 128 years old all of a sudden +Gollum would have turned to dust, had he not fallen down into the lava.

The Three, the rest of the Seven and the Nine Rings were not melted, they only started to lose there power: slower or faster, but not at once. The golden Wood hasn't disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke, it simply started to fade fast, as the power that had supported it, the Power of Nenya, was passing away.

What about the nazgul?

And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgûl came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out. LOTR

The nazgul perished in the explosion of Orodruin, because they happened to be quite close to the volcano. What if they were a bit further away or already in Sammath Naur?

My answer is: they wouldn't have died immediately. This conclusion is supported by Tolkien's earlier outlines where the nazgul are very much alive, bodies and all, after the destruction of the Ring:

Perhaps better would be to make Gollum repent in a way. He is utterly wretched, and commits suicide. Gollum has it, he cried. No one else shall have it. I will destroy you all. He leaps into crack. Fire goes mad. Frodo is like to be destroyed.

Nazgûl shape at the door. Frodo is caught in the fire-chamber and cannot get out!

"Here we all end together," said the Ring Wraith.

Frodo is too weary and lifeless to say nay.

You first, said a voice, and Sam (with Sting?) stabs the Black Rider from behind.

Frodo and Sam escape and flee down mountain-side. But they could not escape the running molten lava. They see Eagles driving the Nazgûl. Eagles rescue them.

- The Story of Sam and Frodo in Mordor, Version I, Sauron Defeated, p. 5

But note: the nazgul sounds suicidal: "Here we all end together," he says. He knows he has little left to live. With the destruction of the Ruling Ring, the power of the Nine would swiftly wane, so the Nazgûl were doomed all the same. Sooner or later, the Nine Rings would loose their power and that's how the Nazgûl would end.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

All right, I more or less agree with what you say about Gollum in the end - his ending was really probably the most, well, fitting, or how to put it - one still has to consider that it would be really weird for him to survive;

Yes, I agree.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have to disagree. IMO, Bilbo and Gollum were much more closely tied to the One Ring than the nazgul. Sauron himself was tied to the One. The nazgul were primarily tied to the Nine, not the One. It were the Nine Rings that made them wraiths. It was the One that had prolonged Gollum's life far beyond his normal life span.

The One had melted, and everything done by its power directly crumbled immediately: Sauron became disembodied, Barad-Dur fell to ruin, Bilbo has become 128 years old all of a sudden +Gollum would have turned to dust, had he not fallen down into the lava.

The Three, the rest of the Seven and the Nine Rings were not melted, they only started to lose there power: slower or faster, but not at once. The golden Wood hasn't disappeared in a cloud of yellow smoke, it simply started to fade fast, as the power that had supported it, the Power of Nenya, was passing away.

Well, I disagree, although we should probably not get too deeply into that, as that would be for another thread. But whatever, I think that the Rings - Three, Nine etc. - lost their power immediately. So, speaking in a very simple way, Galadriel could not anymore "do any magic" with her Ring (like if a painter runs out of paint for the picture - he cannot add anything more), but the things made with the Ring started to vanish slowly, like everything else in Arda did, impossible to be renewed and alien to the "age of Men", indeed, like something preserved from ages past, which should not have been here anymore under normal circumstances (the same as Gollum). You have a dead Neanderthalian frozen in a glacier, his body is preserved. You put him in a freezer (the Ring). Your freezer becomes broken (the Ring destroyed), the ice starts to melt, as soon as it melts completely, nothing prevents the body to dissolve in the way it should have ages ago.

What about the nazgul?
The nazgul perished in the explosion of Orodruin, because they happened to be quite close to the volcano. What if they were a bit further away or already in Sammath Naur?

My answer is: they wouldn't have died immediately. This conclusion is supported by Tolkien's earlier outlines where the nazgul are very much alive, bodies and all, after the destruction of the Ring:

This really sounds interesting, but it would be certainly for another thread (Let me just say that I am not quick to accept this theory, even with the outlining - it was just a draft after all, not thought through completely.)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, I disagree, although we should probably not get too deeply into that, as that would be for another thread. But whatever, I think that the Rings - Three, Nine etc. - lost their power immediately. So, speaking in a very simple way, Galadriel could not anymore "do any magic" with her Ring (like if a painter runs out of paint for the picture - he cannot add anything more), but the things made with the Ring started to vanish slowly, like everything else in Arda did, impossible to be renewed and alien to the "age of Men", indeed, like something preserved from ages past, which should not have been here anymore under normal circumstances (the same as Gollum).

You see Legate, if the Three (and the Nine) had lost their power immediately, like the One, then the effect of this on the rings' creations would have been similar. Barad-Dur didn't start to wane slowly - it disappeared in a blast, its foundations suddenly gone. As did Morannon. Sauron had lost shape in mere seconds, and, according to your theory, his material body would be slowly losing substance instead. Nay, there was difference.

Also, once the Rings lose power, they become visible to everyone, it seems. Frodo had traveled with Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel back from Gondor, but he saw their Rings only on the road to the Havens two years later, in 3021. I think it took two years for the Three to lose power.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

It isn't pessimism that underlays my interpretation, but a comparison with others who bore the Ring, such as Bilbo and Frodo. If Frodo, who carried the Ring and wore it but briefly, and who apparently was an hospitable, kind person to start with--that is, someone with a sense of personal detachment, whose superego manges his id well--was unable to find healing from his guilt at having accepted it, then how likely is it that Gollem, who carried and wore the Ring for decades if not hundreds of years, and who may have been surly and uncompassionate to start with--that is, someone without conscience, whose id was possibly the strongest of his mental aspects , would cope? His attachment would have been tenfold, hundredfold, over Frodo's, and other than that brief flame which Sam extinguised, it's impossible to say if he would feel any remorse or change. And as for Bilbo, I'm not so sure he did of pure heart and mind hand the Ring over to Frodo. It was with mixed feelings and overseen by Gandalf.

I can't agree more...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It isn't pessimism that underlays my interpretation, but a comparison with others who bore the Ring, such as Bilbo and Frodo.

Well, all right, let me formulate it in different words: it's lack of optimism. Or, lack of hope (this estel that works so strongly in Tolkien's works) for Gollum, simply, not believing that it would be possible for him to get rid of his "addiction" to the Ring, despite all his natural dispositions (or the habit, the "addiction" he had developed). I think that is certainly out of place, not to believe that there was hope for Gollum. (Even Gandalf thinks that.)

Originally Posted by Gordis

You see Legate, if the Three (and the Nine) had lost their power immediately, like the One, then the effect of this on the rings' creations would have been similar. Barad-Dur didn't start to wane slowly - it disappeared in a blast, its foundations suddenly gone. As did Morannon. Sauron had lost shape in mere seconds, and, according to your theory, his material body would be slowly losing substance instead. Nay, there was difference.

Hmm... well yes, though one can argue that Sauron himself put so much into the One, he put a part of himself into it - that was the point of Tolkien, I am sure, he makes it clear on the analogical tale of the Drugh Aghan and his statue in the UT. There is nothing like that in the relation of the bearers of the Three, Seven and Nine to their Rings. (With the Nazgul, what I consider the problem is the fact that they were dead - Bilbo, Frodo and Gollum were not. The Ring[s? All right, now just thinking along these lines, that might go to further lengths than we might like. Let's leave this topic now.] made them un-dead, after the destruction, you can remove the prefix: they just became dead.)
.
However, your point is taken. It is certainly worth thinking about and you are right that one cannot just dismiss these facts.

Also, once the Rings lose power, they become visible to everyone, it seems. Frodo had traveled with Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel back from Gondor, but he saw their Rings only on the road to the Havens two years later, in 3021. I think it took two years for the Three to lose power.

But I certainly cannot accept this as a proof. The Ringbearers simply wore the Rings uncovered, in any way, it is even told there that they bore it openly - so emphasised, I believe it was simply so that this was the last journey of the Ringbearers, that was the last sign that the time of the Rings is over, and so they were wearing them totally openly - in all ways you can imagine. Back then when returning home, it was not yet quite the time - not that it would have mattered, but when going to the Grey Havens, it also might be that it had to be clear that they are the Ringbearers, and they were openly showing everybody that they are leaving these shores.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Well, all right, let me formulate it in different words: it's lack of optimism. Or, lack of hope (this estel that works so strongly in Tolkien's works) for Gollum, simply, not believing that it would be possible for him to get rid of his "addiction" to the Ring, despite all his natural dispositions (or the habit, the "addiction" he had developed). I think that is certainly out of place, not to believe that there was hope for Gollum. (Even Gandalf thinks that.)

Um, not a lack of hope so much as a sombre, sobre recognition of just how much hope it would take. Gollem would certainly need his road to Damascus. Gandalf certainly shows mercy to Gollem and pity. But I don't think that Gandalf specifically believes there is hope for the possibility of repentance for Gollem. He counsels against serving death out of judgement. His faith is that he senses Gollem may be connected with the destruction of the Ring--and that Gollem's "premature" death, if you will, would harm that. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past

For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Um, not a lack of hope so much as a sombre, sobre recognition of just how much hope it would take. Gollem would certainly need his road to Damascus. Gandalf certainly shows mercy to Gollem and pity. But I don't think that Gandalf specifically believes there is hope for the possibility of repentance for Gollem. He counsels against serving death out of judgement. His faith is that he senses Gollem may be connected with the destruction of the Ring--and that Gollem's "premature" death, if you will, would harm that. There's a difference.

Yes, I know that, but still, I think still there is this possibility hanging somewhere in the air that it would have been possible for him to recover.

As for what you said, now Gollum's road to Damascus, now that would be something impressive indeed (Though one wonders how much his meeting with Frodo might not have been *almost* something of that sort for him.)