Fantasy

[davem]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

(Note: Originally I meant to write this from the perspective of a Gondorian or Rohirric private, but it doesn't work for the good guys - which tells us something about good and evil, doesn't it?)

It does - just as if we change the quote I gave earlier slightly

The Gondorians/Rohirrim are disenchanted, poorly informed and constantly stressed by the uncertainties that lack of information brings. They suspect that the war might be going badly for their side, and that their commanders, far from being infallible, seem to be making some serious errors of judgment. They worry that if their side loses, they can expect scant mercy from their victorious enemies. They mutter their misgivings sotto voce because they know that there are informers in the ranks and a culture of enforcement through terror bearing down from above.

we find ourselves in totally different territory. Yet, can we honestly imagine that none of the PBI in Gondor or Rohan felt that way? Tolkien stepped out onto dangerous ground with this scene - those Orcs suddenly become human - if they are stupid & vicious as well we are forced to ask ourselves whether we could expect anything else, given that they are brought up without education, ambition, or hope for the future.

But is he attempting to elicit sympathy for sentient beings in a hellish situation, or contempt?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

- if they are stupid & vicious as well we are forced to ask ourselves whether we could expect anything else, given that they are brought up without education, ambition, or hope for the future.

Oh, dear. "It's not the lad's fault, Milud, he had a bad childhood."

[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Oh, dear. "It's not the lad's fault, Milud, he had a bad childhood."

Tolkien clearly struggled over the nature & motivation of Orcs, whether they were 'robots' or sentient creatures. If they were sentient one can analyse their behaviour, attitudes, whether they lived empty, hopeless lives, & if so to what extent they had any option in that.

The point of this particular discussion is why Tolkien (uniquely, I think) chose to, for a brief moment, give us a glimpse into the essential 'humanity' of Orcs. We get to see more deeply into the psyche of these two creatures than we do into most of the other characters in the whole book. In a real sense these are 'modern' people who have snuck into Tolkien's epic romance.

"Sh, Gorbag!" Shagrat's voice was lowered, so that even with his strangely sharpened hearing Sam could only just catch what was said. "They may, but they've got eyes and ears everywhere; some among my lot, as like as not. But there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgul down below are, by your account; and Lugburz is too. Something nearly slipped." 'Nearly, you say!" said Gorbag. 'All right," said Shagrat, 'but we'll talk of that later. Wait till we get to the Under-way. There's a place there where we can talk a bit, while the lads go on." ........ 'No, I don't know," said Gorbag's voice. "The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. Grr! Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes 'em; they're His favourites nowadays, so it's no use grumbling. I tell you, it's no game serving down in the city." 'You should try being up here with Shelob for company," said Shagrat. "I'd like to try somewhere where there's none of 'em. But the war's on now, and when that's over things may be easier."

"It's going well, they say." "They would," grunted Gorbag. "We'll see. But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say?--if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses." 'Ah!" said Shagrat. 'Like old times." 'Yes," said Gorbag. "But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay," his voice sank almost to a whisper, 'ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too.

Those are real, true, grumbling soldiers - & they don't 'belong' in Middle-earth. They complicate things - they aren't the simplistically 'nasty' bad guys of the rest of the legendarium. For a moment they break free of their cliched existence & become three dimensional beings with hopes & fears & dreams. Again, its that "bleak underlying human landscape" which peeps through the fairy story, which for all his efforts Tolkien cannot keep out of his creation.

What's interesting, though, is that these 'glimpses' are always associated with the 'bad' side. The good side wanders in Faery, beneath the stars to the accompaniment of Elven hymns to Elbereth.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet, can we honestly imagine that none of the PBI in Gondor or Rohan felt that way?

Probably not. Generally, the commanders of the 'good side' seem to have been respected, admired, in some cases (like Beregond/Faramir) even loved by their soldiers; but we have one little scene where a soldier of Rohan expresses his doubt, or even distrust, of one of the Big Bosses (without fear of being informed on and punished!) - LotR Book III, Helm's Deep:

'What does that mean?' said one of the guard to Háma.
'That Gandalf Greyhame has need of haste,' answered Háma. 'Ever he goes and comes unlooked-for.'
'Wormtongue, were he here, would not find it hard to explain,' said the other.
'True enough,' said Háma; 'but for myself, I will wait until I see Gandalf again.'
'Maybe you will wait long,' said the other.

We may also wonder whether anybody bothered to tell the common soldiers who took part in the last attack on the Morannon that they were merely bait in a trap, with little hope of survival - and if so, or if they guessed the truth by themselves, how did they feel about it? Unfortunately, we're not told, but it would have been interesting.

Now to the Orcs.

if they are stupid & vicious as well we are forced to ask ourselves whether we could expect anything else, given that they are brought up without education, ambition, or hope for the future.

True; and this is still the most efficient method of reducing human beings to moral Orc-level. On the other hand (to take up WCH's point), if we suppose that the Orcs were sentient beings and not robots, does that not also mean that they were in some degree morally responsible for what they made of the starting conditions they were raised in, even if these conditions were admittedly bleak? How far did their corruption by Morgoth and Sauron actually go?
The sparse glimpses of the other side's perspective Tolkien offers us (not only in the Gorbag/Shagrat scenes, but also in the dialogues of Uglúk and Grishnákh in the Uruk-hai chapter) are very interesting in this respect. Among other things, they show us that the Orcs did believe in such values as honour and solidarity, just like the 'good guys' - but they also show us their utter inability to act according to these values, even in their dealings among themselves; rather they treated each other just as badly as they were treated by their superiors.
But how did they acquire any idea of such values in the first place? And if their inability to act on them is a measure of their corruption, does that mean they're not to blame? I don't think the Professor himself ever made up his mind about that.

But is he attempting to elicit sympathy for sentient beings in a hellish situation, or contempt?

A strange mixture of disgust and pity, I'd say - disgust at the result of the corruption they had undergone, and pity (as in Gandalf's 'I pity even his slaves') for the sentient beings who were thus corrupted.