Branch thread: Tolkien's military technology

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

As horrible as battle always is, it strikes me that Tolkien almost promoted a sort of line of thinking that if you are going to kill them, don't do it from afar. Perhaps he thought of the sword and shield as being preferable to the gun and bullet.

I think it's also that fighting behind a ranged weapon (and more so a gun) is usually thought of as more cowardly than face-to-face combat, especially in ancient times. With an arrow you're just hiding and killing without even giving your opponent a chance, whereas with face-to-face combat you throw yourself into the fray, and are at much more risk. The opponent also gets to see who kills them, and a chance to fight back, rather than a shot coming nowhere.
I think that this idea was shown well in the LOTR movies, with Boromir's death (here)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

With an arrow you're just hiding and killing without even giving your opponent a chance, whereas with face-to-face combat you throw yourseelf into the fray, and are at much more risk. The opponent also gets to see who kills them, and a chance to find back, rather than a shot coming nowhere.

Ah, like that sneak Legolas shooting down a
noble flying nazgul?

And it's the bad guys or good guys turned bad
(Sauron, Saruman) who innovate/create new weapon
systems like explosive powder and Grond the super ram.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Ah, like that sneak Legolas shooting down a
noble flying nazgul?

Or those nasty elves laughing and shooting at the noble Naugrim after their conquest of Menegroth.


One reason for there being no advancement in Middle-earth was because its people were not brought up in society of evolving weapons. The elves were taught by Aule to create weapons. There would be no reason for elves, men, and dwarves, to seek to craft anything better, on account of weapons built by the Valar is the best there is. Instead of trying to figure out how to go from the Bronze Age to the era of Iron, each race just needed to figure out how to maintain a certain level of quality. Elves relied upon the skills that they learned in Valinor; the Dwarves had Iron and Mithril, which they could craft beautifully; Men had their courage and skill.

Originally Posted by Hookbill

The Dwarves have an interesting slant on this. They use metals such a Mithril (when they can get it) to make chain-mail that is strong enough to stop a spear thrust. Could it be that they saw this as progress enough? For warfare, anyway. I suspect their main developments came in the finding and mining of ores.

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head, Hookbill. Dwarves could also make many impressive things out of lesser ore. For instance, we have the fire resistant masks that the dwarves wore into battle, and the Iron boots worn by the dwarves of the Iron Hills; ergo, the name Dain II Ironfoot.

Although the dwarves could build great weapons and armor, their true hobby was mining and building gigantic cities out of stone. Belegost, Nogrod, Nargothrond, and Khazad-dum were their great cities. Even the elves envied their skill; resulting in the cities of Menegroth and Nargothrond. The dwarves most remarkable achievements were not their weapons, or toys—gold, silver, gems etc.—it was the dwellings that they lived in.

Originally Posted by Hookbill

I know mithril was not so readily available; but there is the hint throughout the books that Dwarvish armour is somehow superior to the stuff men made. Even more so when it comes to the elves.

It was available in abundance back in the heydays of the dwarves, in Khazad-dum. We definitely know that dwarves were superior to elves in crafting anything, save only the Silmarils. The example of Thingol and the Naugrim (a rather unfair name for so mighty a people, don’t you think?) proves that.

[Orald]

If I can contribute anything to this thread, it would be that weaponry and armor changed little over the thousands of years because there were relatively few people, few invading forces, and few wars.


The people that inhabited the northwest of M-E were few and far between (I have never attempted a census, just role with me here) meaning that the status quo was the norm as long as no one else intervened to challenge the status quo. Which leads me to my next point.

There were really never any new invading forces that would have caused military tech to change/advance. The only new additions to the equation were dragons, the edain, and easterlings. Even with the new invading forces, none of them ever made a huge impact on the people of the Northwest of M-E because none of the invasions were truly successful except for that of the edain, which had adopted mostly elven ways early on. Much later Wainriders and Southrons certainly added new elements to the battle. But these elements could have possibly been dealt with from a logistical stand point just as easily as through new technology, at least at first, in successive battles this might change, which leads me to my last point.

There were very few wars. There were only a handful of full scale, all out war, battles in the First Age. The Fall of Gondolin was achieved through the aid of treachery, stealth, speed, and excessive force, but not through an advantage of military tech, unless you consider winged dragons as technology. Morgoth was overthrown only through the power of the West, not technological advancement.

In the Second and Third Ages, we do see the development of some new technologies on the part of the Numenoreans but none after the Atalante. The new technologies allowed Numenor to dominate the North and West of M-E, but Numenor was really just an extension of the Edain and Elves, with no other influences. Once Numenor was destroyed much of the new tech developed was lost, instead of there being a power vacuum and an outside force seizing control, the dunedain are able to found two kingdoms and thwart outsiders from invading.

In summation, for military tech to advance, there needs to be catalyst, which is war. Without people, invaders, or war then there is no catalyst and therefore no advancement in weaponry or armor.

BTW, if you think that there were a lot of wars during the 6000 or so of the 3 ages in M-E, then I think you need to compare it to the last 6000 years of our history.

[Inziladun]

This thread brings to mind something I've pondered before.

'It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove (the Enemy) from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.'

That was Gandalf speaking to the Council of Elrond. Apparently Saruman was something of a weaponsmith, making 'devices' that worked well against the Necromancer and his troops. It's pure speculation, but I've wondered just what sort of weapons they were, and why they didn't come into more widespread use if they were so effective.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This thread brings to mind something I've pondered before.



That was Gandalf speaking to the Council of Elrond. Apparently Saruman was something of a weaponsmith, making 'devices' that worked well against the Necromancer and his troops. It's pure speculation, but I've wondered just what sort of weapons they were, and why they didn't come into more widespread use if they were so effective.

"Devices" doesn't necessarily refer to forged weapons, though. It could potentially be a synonym for "arts" or "methods."

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

"Devices" doesn't necessarily refer to forged weapons, though. It could potentially be a synonym for "arts" or "methods."

True, but G's specific reference to 'weapons' in the next sentence seems to me to leave open the possibility that they were items that could be physically wielded. Even if they were 'arts' such as the blasting fire later used against Helm's Deep, could not the practical knowledge of their uses have been known or taught by the other members of the White Council?

[John Johnston]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

One reason for there being no advancement in Middle-earth was because its people were not brought up in society of evolving weapons. The elves were taught by Aule to create weapons. There would be no reason for elves, men, and dwarves, to seek to craft anything better, on account of weapons built by the Valar is the best there is.

Although Men, perhaps, with their God-given virtue to shape their own fate, could be expected (eventually) to do their own thing without reference to the Valar. I'm not sure whether the elves or dwarves could create things which surpassed the capabilities of the Valar; I get the impression that the Valar could not have made (the housing of) the Silmarils (in the same manner as "neither has thy secret thought conceived the snowflake" &c.), and Feanor and friends were on a weapons-making drive - thanks to Melkor, admittedly, but there's something about "the swords of the Noldor did him more harm than anything else" and him regretting it - at roughly the same period in elven craftworking. I reckon the Blessed Realm provided a light of inspiration as well as allowing the direct tutelage by the Valar, and that removed from it the elves were unable to innovate.