What do you assign to Orthanc?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I believe it was written in the mid 19th century to help strengthen the then quite recent (forced) union between the kingdom of Sweden and Norway. Sweden probably harboured hopes of regaining Finland too at this time, which they just lost to Russia, but before that had been a part of the kingdom for many centuries. Sweden had wrestled Norway from Denmark, their arch-enemies, after a successful field-campain by the newly appointed king, Frenchman Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, who had no Swedish connections apart from leading an invading army against the country only a few years before receiving the crown. This happened in the aftermath of Napoleon's big defeat, which Bernadotte, once favoured by the little big man, was instrumental in achieving with his inside information. In Norway however there was little interest in being the subjects of a French Swedish king; nationalism was stirring and they desired independence but had to wait almost a hundred years to get it. "Du gamla, Du Fria", written as a Scandinavian anthem, later became the unofficial Swedish national anthem, although it never mentions the country in question.

I assign nationalism.

Wrestled Norway from Denmark. . .Sweden did no such thing. It was demanded by England! Norway declared independency and Denmark got the tiny duchy of Lauenburg (northern Germany) as compensation. Norway elected the danish prince Christian as king, got one of the most democratic constitutions in europe and was then invated by Sweden. . .

Anyways the song is from 1844, by this time the ancient rivalry of the north had been substituted by sense of common history and brotherhood. In the first war of Slesvig (1848-1850) between Denmark and Slesvig-Holsten (supported my Prussia), there where troops from Norway and Sweden in Denmark to defend her.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Wrestled Norway from Denmark. . .Sweden did no such thing. It was demanded by England! Norway declared independency and Denmark got the tiny duchy of Lauenburg (northern Germany) as compensation. Norway elected the danish prince Christian as king, got one of the most democratic constitutions in europe and was then invated by Sweden. . .

If I remember correctly one of the conditions Bernadotte put on joining the anti-French coalition was England's support for his plans on Norway, which was given. First Bernadotte commanded the international North Army against Napoleon, but when that war was won, he marched with the Swedish army (which he had spared from most of the fighting up until now) on Denmark. He won a few minor battles and when Copenhagen was threatened the Danes gave up, and lost Norway in the subsequent peace treaties. I don't know if the English were present during the negotiations, they might have been. When Norway refused to accept the "union", they were invaded and defeated by the Swedish army, as you said. Norway got to keep their modern constitution though and was an autonomous region until 1905 when they gained full independence.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Surely you mean Bernadotte and not Bonaparte?

and no, the only fighting that the danes did was against the english in the so called "gunboat war". I think you are mixing up the napoleonic wars with some of the earlier Dano-Swedish wars.

Anyways we should move this talk to PMs

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Surely you mean Bernadotte and not Bonaparte?

and no, the only fighting that the danes did was against the english in the so called "gunboat war". I think you are mixing up the napoleonic wars with some of the earlier Dano-Swedish wars.

Anyways we should move this talk to PMs

Yeah, let's do that. You will receive a PM later on.

And yes, I got my Frenchmen mixed up, obviously.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm missing a Tolkien connection in these last posts - please do take off-topic discussions to PM. Thanks!

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by skip spence

First Bonaparte commanded the international North Army against Napoleon

Wouldn't that be a bit hard to do?