The Way We War

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

A very good point.

It must be remembered that Tolkien's dwarves were not as short as people tend to think they were.

Even if Thorin was about 3-4 feet tall he would still have been capable of using a full size (3-3 1/2 ft sword) - take a look at this piece on Long sword fighting, particularly the bottom two pictures http://www.thearma.org/essays/Talhoffer/HT-Web.htm

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by davem

Even if Thorin was about 3-4 feet tall he would still have been capable of using a full size (3-3 1/2 ft sword)

Hobbits were 3-4 feet, and LotR Prologue says they were smaller than Dwarves. Personally, I imagine Tolkien's Dwarves as something between 4 and 5 feet (maybe a little closer to 5), which would mean that an exceptionally tall Dwarf might well pass as an exceptionally short Man (of non-Numenorean descent); and even an average-sized Dwarf would be able to use a Mannish or Elven sword like a claymore.

As for missile weapons, I wonder whether Dwarves had crossbows. If anybody in Middle-Earth had discovered this rather advanced weapons technology, I'd guess it would be Aule's inventive children. (On the other hand, this may well be just an idée fixe left over from countless hours of playing Elder Scrolls III and IV, where a Dwemer crossbow was one of the best ranged weapons you could get your hands on...)

Last not least, I'm not convinced that most of the Dwarves' fighting was being done underground. Unless they were really busy fighting nameless things gnawing at the roots of the world all the time, I'd rather think that any battle that had them facing the enemy within their own subterranean homes was already half lost. Wouldn't they do their damnedest to repel any enemy way before they came close to their gates?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Hobbits were 2-3 feet (except Merry and Pippin), NOT 3-4 feet.

[Kuruharan]

While it mentions the use of shields with the Dwarfs of the Iron Hills (and let us not forget Thorin Oakenshield) the book also mentions the use of two handed weapons. How are Dwarfs suppose to fight in an organized fashion with no means of defense.

I wouldn't propose that they do at all. However, the shield appears to have been a fairly standard piece of dwarven equipment. Their standard practice may well have been to swap back and forth.

Unlike the sword, it does not allow for stabbing (well you can, as seen by the movie Gimli) and needs to be swung or chopped in order to hit your foe. If the Dwarfs are to fight in groups they would constantly be in danger of hitting one another.

However, when you are shorter and outnumbered, which they ususally were, fighting individually isn't a prudent course to pursue.

I wonder whether Dwarves had crossbows.

Never any reference to them in the books.

Hobbits were 2-3 feet

Two feet...that seems just a bit too small.

[mark12_30]

As I recall, a range of four feet max down to two feet min, and commonly three to three-six.

From the prologue:

For they are a little people, smaller than Dwarves: less stout and stocky, that is, even when they are not actually much shorter. Their height is variable, ranging between two and four feet of our measure. They seldom now reach three feet; but they have dwindled, they say, and in ancient days they were taller. According to the Red Book, Bandobras Took (Bullroarer), son of Isengrim the Second, was four foot five and able to ride a horse. He was surpassed in all Hobbit records only by two famous characters of old; but that curious matter is dealt with in this book.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Pitchwife
Last not least, I'm not convinced that most of the Dwarves' fighting was being done underground. Unless they were really busy fighting nameless things gnawing at the roots of the world all the time, I'd rather think that any battle that had them facing the enemy within their own subterranean homes was already half lost. Wouldn't they do their damnedest to repel any enemy way before they came close to their gates?

I believe there were numerous dwarf/orc battles fought
underground.

LOTR, Appendix A

Thrain...stood up and said: 'This cannot be borne!'
That was the beginning of the War of the Dwarves and the
Orcs, which was long and deadly, and fought for the most
part in deep places beneath the earth.
...When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one
all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could find from Gundabad
to the Gladden. Both sides were pitiless, and there was death
and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the Dwarves had the
victory through their strength and their matchless weapons,
and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every
den under mountain.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

...even an average-sized Dwarf would be able to use a Mannish or Elven sword like a claymore.

I though a claymore was a super-sized sword, at least double the size and weight of a standard longsword, and only usable by unusally large and strong men.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I though a claymore was a super-sized sword, at least double the size and weight of a standard longsword, and only usable by unusally large and strong men.

I believe Pitchwife was referring to an average-size sword seeming like a claymore in the hands of a dwarf; rather like Sting -- a knife -- seemed to be a short sword in the hands of Bilbo.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I dunno- I think I can imagine Dwarves making and deploying curved plastic housings packed with C-4 and shrapnel, detonatable either by remote command or tripwire.......

[davem]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I dunno- I think I can imagine Dwarves making and deploying curved plastic housings packed with C-4 and shrapnel, detonatable either by remote command or tripwire.......

Ha! I thought you'd read all of HoM-e. The Dwarves' use of anti-personel mines against Moria Orcs was an idea Tolkien was playing with in a late '60's re-write of LotR. Of course, the 'plastic housings' were to be made of 'imperishable crystal' & the tripwire made from single strands of Elven hair. The idea was that Gimli's request for a single hair from Galadriel's head was to provide said wire, which would have been set in the crystal housing of the mine & hopefully would have been strong enough to be retrieved & reused. An alternate idea involved his shaving Legolas' head one night to obtain a large stock of said tripwire material. Obtaining the explosive would have been more difficult - Gandalf would have been a possible source of gunpowder (Gimli would have offered him a contract to supply 'fireworks' for the Lonely Mountain's Durin's Day Hop in the hope that Gandalf wouldn't realise their true intention - in this version G. would have had serious debt problems after a late night gambling session with some drunken Elves & been left with a price on his head & Glorfindel on his tail for the cash).

The whole idea, sadly, fell by the wayside....

[Pitchwife]

Hobbit Height, once more

UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Appendix on Númenórean Linear Measures:

The remarks [on the stature of Hobbits] in the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings are unnecessarily vague and complicated, owing to the inclusion of references to survivals of the race in later times; but as far as The Lord of the Rings is concerned they boil down to this: the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more.

[Kuruharan]

Another link.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I dunno- I think I can imagine Dwarves making and deploying curved plastic housings packed with C-4 and shrapnel, detonatable either by remote command or tripwire.......

I find myself reminded of this.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Who cares what Dwarves used, they were such tanks it didn't MATTER! I mean am I the only person who thinks the 500 dwarves armed to the teeth with the finest weapons available in the world would cut through the soppy Laketowners and the wimpy Wood-Elves like butter? 13 dwarves alone cut through to Bolg's bodyguard after all... Haha .

Anyway, to contribute to the Roman debate, Roman warfare was designed for Men and would not suit Dwarves. It was designed to simply be as efficient as possible on a grand scale. They didn't have the finest weapons or armour available but these items were mass produced and protected the most important parts of the body. Tactics were to minimise casualties and maximise kills but tactics were very generalised. However the Roman machine's best attribute (in my opinion) was the logistical system including road building, and scouting/camping tactics. This is what really gave the Romans the edge, their efficient administration overall.

However with Dwarves it's different. The dwarves have a small and slowly growing population. Dwarven warriors are specialist troops covered in fine armour and weapons instead of mass produced mediocrity (obviously if the battle is lost the enemy gets all the armour and weapons). They can't exactly afford to fight wars of attrition with a few battles lost. So the axe is designed to take out the enemy with one stroke and win battles relatively quickly.

And dwarves were really freakin' tough. So I think they could take some beating under chainmail that would usually damage organs. Not to mention deal with a scratch from a sword which would make advantage of the lack of Dwarven shield. So axe = awesome dwarf weapon.

As for whether or not dwarves could shoot bows, bit of a stupid question. French knights didn't just learn how to ride with lances and English longbowmen didn't just learn how to draw back a bow. A lot of the time they would have to adapt for the circumstances.

Swords - too short and can't pierce armour or cut through tendons that well. They were designed for slashing at necks and torsos (dwarves are too short) or stabbing (dwarves have not got long enough reach). Also swords are all metal, while an axe is half wood. An axe saves precious dwarven metals.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Kuruharan

The axe is not exactly a handy weapon for fighting people taller than you are as you expose yourself even more when you make your stroke.

I think a better way would have been if the dwarves fought more along the lines of the Roman legionaries whose fighting style was made to order (literally) for short people fighting taller ones.

This is semi-off topic, but that's one bit in PJ's FOTR prologue
that seemed absurd, the elves using very long scythe-type
weapons. It looks impressive but after one swipe they'd be
helpless to attack. Far better in such an orc melee charge would
be legionairre tactics and use of the gladius and a small shield.

[Elmo]

Doesn't Bard mention something about Dwarves not being suited for battle out of their caves? Maybe that was just taunting but it was certainly what the dwarves were to! So I don't think have beaten the Elves and Men so easily as you say Sixth Wizard. but I'd imagine an axe on a dwarf would be a lethal weapon swinging upwards. They're just the right height to attack umm more delicate areas of the body.