Could a Dwarf melee with a Balrog?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by BGreg

That is possible. However, you're not mentioning the fact Legolas was also pretty scared when Balrog appeared, was he not?

As for the Balrog, there was indeed a very good reason to be scared. But for Ganalf, the balrog would have killed them all in no time. Legolas explained his fear to Celeborn

:"It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower."

Legolas was no Calaquende Elf to have great power in the Unseen. (I don't believe there is enough evidence that Legolas lived in the First Age - in LOTR he is written as a relatively young elf). But still he didn't fear the ghosts of Men:

there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror. - "The Passing of the Grey company."

Originally Posted by BGreg

And I don't think the Men behaved much different then Gimli did. Yes, they have seen the shadows (or maybe just perceived them), but were no less frightened.

The interesting thing is that Men were far less frightened of the Balrog that Legolas or Gimli were. Aragorn and Boromir firmly held their ground, clenching their weapons. Boromir blew his horn and was the last to retreat. Even the hobbits felt more or less OK. Legolas and Gimli, in contrast, were incapacitated by fear.
As for the Paths of the Dead, Gimli felt far worse fear than the Dunedain rangers:

Then Aragorn led the way, and such was the strength of his will in that hour that all the Dúnedain and their horses followed him. [...] Legolas passed in. And there stood Gimli the Dwarf left all alone.
His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself. ‘Here is a thing unheard of!’ he said. ‘An Elf will go underground and a Dwarf dare not!’ With that he plunged in. But it seemed to him that he dragged his feet like lead over the threshold; and at once a blindness came upon him, even upon Gimli Glóin’s son who had walked unafraid in many deep places of the world.

Originally Posted by BGreg

So the rings had no power over them. Isn't Tom Bombadil described in the same manner in the Elrond's Council? That makes me wonder. What would happen if a dwarf had found The Ring? Would he become invisible? Apparently not, if the quote above is to be trusted. How then did the dwarves not see a person wearing The Ring, like Bilbo? Would they not have the same power Tom Bombadil had?

The rings did have power over the Dwarves - the dwarves couldn't turn invisible, yes, but they used the rings to gain wealth. Mad dying Thrain found in the pits of Dol-Guldur had forgotten his name, his people, everything but his Ring - that implies that the Ring had a very strong hold on his mind.

Tom, on the other hand, was not affected by the Ring at all. Still when Frodo put on the Ring in Tom's house, Tom was able to see him quite clearly - to see him in the Spirit World and that without wearing the ring or turning invisible himself. Thus Tom probably lived in both words, like Calaquendi elves.

The Dwarves were unable to see Bilbo wearing the Ring, as you have mentioned. Unlike Tom, they had no access into the Spirit world.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

When Elrond is deciding on the makeup of the Company, he rejects including "a great Elf-lord like Gorfindel." Had Legolas of Mirkwood been the same as Laegolas lord of Gondolin a Noldorin Exile from Valinor, surely he would have qualified! (according to the conception operative at the time the Fall of Gondolin (and indeed the Lord of the Rings) was written, its inhabitants were entirely of the Noldoli).

Moreover, Legolas couldn't have been the son of Thranduil and at the same time Laegolas of Gondolin: Thranduil was a Sinda of Doriath, with no connection to the Hidden City.

This is just Tolkien borrowing a pre-existing name, something he did not only with Men of Gondor, but with Elves as well, e.g. Rumil of Lorien who can hardly be the Sage of Tirion!

In fact he as much as admits that he did the same with Glorfindel (although in an early LR note he wrote "Glorfindel tells of his youth in Gondolin).

[BGreg]

Originally Posted by Gordis
The interesting thing is that Men were far less frightened of the Balrog that Legolas or Gimli were. Aragorn and Boromir firmly held their ground, clenching their weapons. Boromir blew his horn and was the last to retreat. Even the hobbits felt more or less OK. Legolas and Gimli, in contrast, were incapacitated by fear.

Actually, I was talking about the ordinary Men of Rohan and Gondor, who were afraid of the ghosts on Paths of the Dead. Not Aragorn and Boromir. Considering them, everything you said is true. They were very valiant in face of a frightening foe and stood their ground, even trying to charge at the Balrog after he overwhelmed Gandalf. Perhaps they were not completely aware of Balrog's strength?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by BGreg

Actually, I was talking about the ordinary Men of Rohan and Gondor, who were afraid of the ghosts on Paths of the Dead. Not Aragorn and Boromir. Considering them, everything you said is true. They were very valiant in face of a frightening foe and stood their ground, even trying to charge at the Balrog after he overwhelmed Gandalf. Perhaps they were not completely aware of Balrog's strength?

Boromir indeed probably heard nothing about balrogs. But Aragorn (considering his education in Rivendell) would probably know more about Balrogs than a Sinda-Silvan Elf Legolas. Aragorn could have even heard Glorfindel telling first-hand stories. The fall of Gondolin was part of Aragorn's family history, after all. So Aragorn had all reasons to be as frightened as Legolas - but he wasn't.

I think Men felt only rational fear, while the fear of the Elf and the Dwarf could have had some additional components to it as well.

The Elf probably saw clearly how terrible Balrog looked in the Spirit world: Demon unvieled.
The Dwarf, as I said, would see nothing but the shadow and flame, but felt greatly frightened by any creature of the spirit world. He wouldn't be able to tell who is more fearsome: a balrog, a nazgul or a ghost - in fact he mixes them. Note that in the chapter "The Great River" Gimli is unable to tell a nazgul from a balrog:

`But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria – the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.

Frodo, with his acquired insight into the Spirit World: a legacy of the Morgul wound, is able to correct him:

'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was –' Then he paused and fell silent. [...] – No, I will not say

But he did guess correctly, I bet.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Frodo, with his acquired insight into the Spirit World: a legacy of the Morgul wound, is able to correct him:

Or simply that he had been pursued by the Nazgul across the lengths of Eriador--I suspect this is more the reason than any general insight into the Spirit World.

Also, I am not so sure that Aragorn felt no fear in the face of the Balrog. As I quoted above, he makes specific mention about having entered Moria before and not wanting to experience that again. But Aragorn in any case, through the sheer power of his will, is able to overcome these fears that prey on all mortal men, as we see in the Paths of the Dead.

[BGreg]

'He cannot stand alone!' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back. along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf!' 'Gondor!' cried Boromir and leaped after him.

Well, if Aragorn was scared, he certainly didn't show it. Charging at the Balrog like that... truly heroic.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by BGreg

Well, if Aragorn was scared, he certainly didn't show it. Charging at the Balrog like that... truly heroic.

Well, to quote my own post again:

'I too once passed the Dimrill Gate,' said Aragorn quietly; 'but though I also came out again, the memory is very evil. I do not wish to enter Moria a second time.'

Fear, or the memory (and aversion to) evil, I don't know, but certainly it is not as if Aragorn had no problem with facing the Balrog.

My point was that he probably felt some level of fear when on the Paths of the Dead as well, since only the Elves (who are immortal) are free from that (it is not even an issue for them, same as the Nazgul have no effect on Glorfindel). But he overcame it by sheer force of will, just as Boromir did...

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Or simply that [Frodo] had been pursued by the Nazgul across the lengths of Eriador--I suspect this is more the reason than any general insight into the Spirit World.

I didn't mean Frodo saw the nazgul unveiled in the Spirit World again. But Frodo's senses became sharpened by the Morgul wound. The feeling of unnatural cold and the pain in his wound - that was how he recognised a nazgul.

A sudden dread fell on the Company. `Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company.[...] Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder.

Gimli was the only one who thought of a Balrog. Why? perhaps Durin's Bane was a personification of his fear of the Otherworld. Yet he had seen and "felt" a nazgul -the messenger who spoke with Dain.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Also, I am not so sure that Aragorn felt no fear in the face of the Balrog. As I quoted above, he makes specific mention about having entered Moria before and not wanting to experience that again. But Aragorn in any case, through the sheer power of his will, is able to overcome these fears that prey on all mortal men, as we see in the Paths of the Dead.

Who said Aragorn was not afraid of the Balrog? I guess not a creature but a Vala could boast of having no fear of Balrogs.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I didn't mean Frodo saw the nazgul unveiled in the Spirit World again. But Frodo's senses became sharpened by the Morgul wound. The feeling of unnatural cold and the pain in his wound - that was how he recognised a nazgul.

Gimli was the only one who thought of a Balrog. Why? perhaps Durin's Bane was a personification of his fear of the Otherworld. Yet he had seen and "felt" a nazgul -the messenger who spoke with Dain.


Who said Aragorn was not afraid of the Balrog? I guess not a creature but a Vala could boast of having no fear of Balrogs.

I can see that the wound might have contributed importantly here, but I still think that it was also the numerous other encounters with the Nazgul, beginning in the Shire itself. To me this is still different from the random encounter with a Nazgul, as Gimli would have experienced if he happened to be there...

Otherwise, I was responding to Bgreg, who said that Aragorn showed no fear...