Tuvo the wizard king - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Pitchwife · 01-23-2009, 07:33 PM

As for 'fay' with an a, Rumil and Orald have summed it up pretty well.

Another argument for Tuvo as a proto-Maia (now that I've finally managed to get my hands on copy of BoLT and had a chance to look the whole story up): He seems to have had a pretty accurate idea as to what or who was sleeping in Murmenalda (or why else would he have forbidden his people to go there?), and unless he himself had previously stumbled across the sleepers much like Nuin did later, how could he know, if not by remembering a vague hint heard in the Music?
As Lalwende remarked, however, he doesn't really make an evil impression, with his forbidding Nuin to trouble the sleepers because he was scared of the wrath of Manwe or Ilúvatar himself - a consideration that wouldn't have kept any genuine disciple of Melko from causing any mischief he could. (It certainly didn't prevent Melkor himself in the later Silmarillion messing with the Children of Ilúvatar.)
So (to correct my earlier post) there isn't really that much evidence leading from Tuvo to Thû/Sauron, apart from the similarity of names and the rejected 'sorcerer's apprentice' note.

There is, however, another character in the outlines for Gilfanon's Tale who strikes me very much as proto-Sauronic: namely, Fukil/Fankil/Fangli, a servant of Melko's who escaped from the attack of the Gods on Utumna without getting caught and later corrupted most of the newly-awakened Men, turning them against the Elves of the Great Lands. That story rings a lot of bells for me, from Melkor's servants catching Elves near Cuiviénen in order to corrupt them into Orcs to Aranel's story of the Fall of Men in the Athrabeth...
Anyway, it seems our beloved Necromancer had a lot of ancestors...

Eäralda Halatiriva · 01-28-2009, 02:14 PM

maybe Tuvo is some kind of Mage who does exist in Middle Earth, and yet was not written of in the official canon of the Legendarium.....i mean, just like in the Bible where there are plenty of stories etc that don't figure into the official book, but were confirmed by later scholars as being deliberately left out of the Bible canon for political reasons, there could be entities etc that don't show in the written accounts of Elves or Hobbits that actually DO exist (and maybe they won't play a role in the first but rather the last Ages of Arda). all speculation

but remember Tolkien was a professor and would be used to the idea of several different readings/writings of events, both official and heretical...

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-28-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

just like in the Bible where there are plenty of stories etc that don't figure into the official book, but were confirmed by later scholars as being deliberately left out of the Bible canon for political reasons,

For example?

Mithalwen · 01-28-2009, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

For example?

The apocrypha?

I think that fay and fey have different origins. Fey (which can also mean having second sight as well as doomed),is Scots from AS/Icelandic/OHG.

Fay is just an anglicised spelling Fee - the french for Fairy. They are homophones not polysemic.

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-28-2009, 04:05 PM

OT for a moment: the Apocrypha's history was quite the reverse- these were 'extra' books included in the Alexandrine Jewish (Greek) Old Testament, the Septuagint, which the Jews rejected in the 1st Century, none of them having been written in Hebrew, and all postdating the 'end of prophecy.' The Christian world universally accepted these books as canonical until the Reformation, when Protestants set them apart in their own section- by the 19th century they were usually omitted entirely from Protestant bibles. Whereas they remain a part of Catholic and Orthodox bibles to this very day, so one can hardly claim they've been 'suppressed!'

Mithalwen · 01-28-2009, 04:24 PM

Thank you...for the enlightenment. I was raised Anglican so it isn't something I have much experience of ... though I can hardly deny that the Church of England had a somewhat political start....

... So not the apocrypha but more the DaVinci code conspiracy theory lark...

William Cloud Hicklin · 01-28-2009, 04:30 PM

Reading The Da Vinci Code as a source of Church history is about like reading the Bible as a science text.....

01-23-2009, 07:33 PM	#1
Pitchwife Wight of the Old Forest Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall Posts: 3,329	As for 'fay' with an a, Rumil and Orald have summed it up pretty well. Another argument for Tuvo as a proto-Maia (now that I've finally managed to get my hands on copy of BoLT and had a chance to look the whole story up): He seems to have had a pretty accurate idea as to what or who was sleeping in Murmenalda (or why else would he have forbidden his people to go there?), and unless he himself had previously stumbled across the sleepers much like Nuin did later, how could he know, if not by remembering a vague hint heard in the Music? As Lalwende remarked, however, he doesn't really make an evil impression, with his forbidding Nuin to trouble the sleepers because he was scared of the wrath of Manwe or Ilúvatar himself - a consideration that wouldn't have kept any genuine disciple of Melko from causing any mischief he could. (It certainly didn't prevent Melkor himself in the later Silmarillion messing with the Children of Ilúvatar.) So (to correct my earlier post) there isn't really that much evidence leading from Tuvo to Thû/Sauron, apart from the similarity of names and the rejected 'sorcerer's apprentice' note. There is, however, another character in the outlines for Gilfanon's Tale who strikes me very much as proto-Sauronic: namely, Fukil/Fankil/Fangli, a servant of Melko's who escaped from the attack of the Gods on Utumna without getting caught and later corrupted most of the newly-awakened Men, turning them against the Elves of the Great Lands. That story rings a lot of bells for me, from Melkor's servants catching Elves near Cuiviénen in order to corrupt them into Orcs to Aranel's story of the Fall of Men in the Athrabeth... Anyway, it seems our beloved Necromancer had a lot of ancestors... __________________ Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI

01-28-2009, 02:14 PM	#2
Eäralda Halatiriva Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Alqualondë Posts: 31	maybe Tuvo is some kind of Mage who does exist in Middle Earth, and yet was not written of in the official canon of the Legendarium.....i mean, just like in the Bible where there are plenty of stories etc that don't figure into the official book, but were confirmed by later scholars as being deliberately left out of the Bible canon for political reasons, there could be entities etc that don't show in the written accounts of Elves or Hobbits that actually DO exist (and maybe they won't play a role in the first but rather the last Ages of Arda). all speculation but remember Tolkien was a professor and would be used to the idea of several different readings/writings of events, both official and heretical... __________________ the Staff of the Halatir of the West

01-28-2009, 04:05 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	OT for a moment: the Apocrypha's history was quite the reverse- these were 'extra' books included in the Alexandrine Jewish (Greek) Old Testament, the Septuagint, which the Jews rejected in the 1st Century, none of them having been written in Hebrew, and all postdating the 'end of prophecy.' The Christian world universally accepted these books as canonical until the Reformation, when Protestants set them apart in their own section- by the 19th century they were usually omitted entirely from Protestant bibles. Whereas they remain a part of Catholic and Orthodox bibles to this very day, so one can hardly claim they've been 'suppressed!' __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

01-28-2009, 04:24 PM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Thank you...for the enlightenment. I was raised Anglican so it isn't something I have much experience of ... though I can hardly deny that the Church of England had a somewhat political start.... ... So not the apocrypha but more the DaVinci code conspiracy theory lark... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

01-28-2009, 04:30 PM	#7
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Reading The Da Vinci Code as a source of Church history is about like reading the Bible as a science text..... __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.