Why was the army of the dead at Minas Tirith? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

BGreg · 01-14-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

but we all know they can't leave the movies exactly the same as the books or they would be six hours long each!

well, they could have made a TV series out of LOTR (like HBO's Rome), but that just wouldn't be it. I guess we'll have to accept the limitations of modern cinematography

alatar · 01-14-2009, 09:35 AM

Possibly another reason PJ went with the nameless scrubbing bubbles and not liberated Gondorians as he (methinks) tried to keep the main characters in the light. Eomer gets short shrift; watch how he's treated in RotK, especially after Theoden dies. Eowyn, after killing the Witch King, still has to be saved from the limping Gimp by Aragorn, as killing the second-highest ranking baddie just wasn't enough.

So why add even more nameless, though prominent, characters?

Seeing men (and women, I care not) jump down from the ships, even with the scrubbing bubbles, would have been better, as it would have shown that Aragorn was becoming a leader of humans, not some sorcerer or elvish wight. It was he that led the men (and elves) to victory at Helm's Deep; at Minas Tirith, he could have got out his fishing pole and relaxed on the docks while his undead army did all of the work, securing his new realm.

How many orcs did he cut down in comparison to his army? Did he tell them to go here and there, showing his battle acumen? Nope. He just let the ooze ooze.

thewichtking · 01-24-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGreg

well, they could have made a TV series out of LOTR (like HBO's Rome), but that just wouldn't be it. I guess we'll have to accept the limitations of modern cinematography

but then they would still be making them!(that costs a lot of money) do you really think Pj would spend all that money? OK, OK, I'm just going to leave it at this the movies may have been pretty crappy as far as true to the books goes but still they where OK movie and I'd watch them whenever i got the chance so there

BGreg · 01-25-2009, 05:19 AM

Quote:

but then they would still be making them!(that costs a lot of money) do you really think Pj would spend all that money? OK, OK, I'm just going to leave it at this the movies may have been pretty crappy as far as true to the books goes but still they where OK movie and I'd watch them whenever i got the chance so there

Yeah, I think so too. I watch the movies every time I can

Unfortunately, I didn't get to see the Extended Edition yet. Just saw a couple of trailers and it looks pretty good.

TheOrcWithNoName · 05-19-2009, 05:39 AM

I must confess to really hating the Flubber scenes during the battle of Pelennor Fields.

The special effects were pretty rubbish anyway, but it was their very presence and how they just swept all before them like a swarm of angry bees in a matter of minutes and thus ending the fight, just had me screaming abuse at the tv!

My wife actually said to me, if the Undead are so good why doesn't Aragorn let them march to Mordor and help out Frodo & Sam by kicking some orc & Ringwraith ***!

Personally I think they were included due to time & money constraints. PJ either didn't have the necessary budget to film the true battle in full, and neither did he have the additional time. So he took a few liberties with the book and let the Flubbers do their stuff in a matter of seconds rather than minutes.

All the same it is probably only one of maybe 5 scenes in ROTK that I fastforward with all due haste so shockingly bad was the trauma

Nerwen · 05-19-2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOrcWithNoName

Personally I think they were included due to time & money constraints. PJ either didn't have the necessary budget to film the true battle in full, and neither did he have the additional time. So he took a few liberties with the book and let the Flubbers do their stuff in a matter of seconds rather than minutes.

I've wondered myself whether the Army of the Dead was originally going to have extra-special effects (instead of the rather cheap and nasty look it ended up with), so that PJ decided to feature it as often as possible, whether or not it made sense... and then it turned out that would cost too much.

Kent2010 · 05-19-2009, 07:11 AM

I think this is one of the cases where you see Jackson not thinking about the effects of changing something, and then being stuck in a tough spot and being forced to make another change.

I have read from a couple places (and a couple of the different actors/actresses) that Jackson did not have a clear plan. It seemed like a 'rollercoaster' where things got decided days, sometimes hours before, and he just kind of went with whatever floated his boat. I think the Army of the Dead is another example of poor planning.

Making changes isn't a great disaster, as long as it is thought out and you aren't changing something for the sake of change.

Jackson, for some reason, decided to greatly inflate the numbers of Sauron's army, to 250,000 - 300,000, while keeping Gondor's and Rohan's forces relatively the same. Before Theoden sets out, he says he has 6,000 spears, that is what he sets out in the books with, and Gondor's forces are downright slim. Aragorn tells Elrond in Dunharrow (for some other unknown reason) that there "are no more men."

The problem becomes how does some 10,000 men defeat 250,000 if there are no more men? Well I guess we need an unkillable wave of slime. This is probably my greatest frustration with the movies, is making changes for the sake of change. And sometimes, the changes that first seem small and insignificant, effect the movie later on and force even larger and more severe changes. That is the effect of poor planning.

Elmo · 05-19-2009, 07:24 AM

Why did they need to be green is what I wonder ? Ghosts are usually pearly white. Never mind the awful battle, I really wish Jackson had done the paths of the dead like it was in the book. Finding the skeleton of Baldor, seeing his stratch marks on the door and having the 'dead following' could have been classic film horror scenes.

01-14-2009, 09:35 AM	#2
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Possibly another reason PJ went with the nameless scrubbing bubbles and not liberated Gondorians as he (methinks) tried to keep the main characters in the light. Eomer gets short shrift; watch how he's treated in RotK, especially after Theoden dies. Eowyn, after killing the Witch King, still has to be saved from the limping Gimp by Aragorn, as killing the second-highest ranking baddie just wasn't enough. So why add even more nameless, though prominent, characters? Seeing men (and women, I care not) jump down from the ships, even with the scrubbing bubbles, would have been better, as it would have shown that Aragorn was becoming a leader of humans, not some sorcerer or elvish wight. It was he that led the men (and elves) to victory at Helm's Deep; at Minas Tirith, he could have got out his fishing pole and relaxed on the docks while his undead army did all of the work, securing his new realm. How many orcs did he cut down in comparison to his army? Did he tell them to go here and there, showing his battle acumen? Nope. He just let the ooze ooze. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

05-19-2009, 05:39 AM	#5
TheOrcWithNoName Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2009 Location: Birmingham, central England Posts: 48	I must confess to really hating the Flubber scenes during the battle of Pelennor Fields. The special effects were pretty rubbish anyway, but it was their very presence and how they just swept all before them like a swarm of angry bees in a matter of minutes and thus ending the fight, just had me screaming abuse at the tv! My wife actually said to me, if the Undead are so good why doesn't Aragorn let them march to Mordor and help out Frodo & Sam by kicking some orc & Ringwraith **! Personally I think they were included due to time & money constraints. PJ either didn't have the necessary budget to film the true battle in full, and neither did he have the additional time. So he took a few liberties with the book and let the Flubbers do their stuff in a matter of seconds rather than minutes. All the same it is probably only one of maybe 5 scenes in ROTK that I fastforward with all due haste so shockingly bad was the trauma __________________ "No that's fame. Fame has a fifteen minute half-life, infamy lasts a little longer."*

05-19-2009, 07:11 AM	#7
Kent2010 Wight Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: USA Posts: 240	I think this is one of the cases where you see Jackson not thinking about the effects of changing something, and then being stuck in a tough spot and being forced to make another change. I have read from a couple places (and a couple of the different actors/actresses) that Jackson did not have a clear plan. It seemed like a 'rollercoaster' where things got decided days, sometimes hours before, and he just kind of went with whatever floated his boat. I think the Army of the Dead is another example of poor planning. Making changes isn't a great disaster, as long as it is thought out and you aren't changing something for the sake of change. Jackson, for some reason, decided to greatly inflate the numbers of Sauron's army, to 250,000 - 300,000, while keeping Gondor's and Rohan's forces relatively the same. Before Theoden sets out, he says he has 6,000 spears, that is what he sets out in the books with, and Gondor's forces are downright slim. Aragorn tells Elrond in Dunharrow (for some other unknown reason) that there "are no more men." The problem becomes how does some 10,000 men defeat 250,000 if there are no more men? Well I guess we need an unkillable wave of slime. This is probably my greatest frustration with the movies, is making changes for the sake of change. And sometimes, the changes that first seem small and insignificant, effect the movie later on and force even larger and more severe changes. That is the effect of poor planning. __________________ an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind

05-19-2009, 07:24 AM	#8
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	Why did they need to be green is what I wonder ? Ghosts are usually pearly white. Never mind the awful battle, I really wish Jackson had done the paths of the dead like it was in the book. Finding the skeleton of Baldor, seeing his stratch marks on the door and having the 'dead following' could have been classic film horror scenes. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by Elmo; 05-19-2009 at 10:40 AM.