T-I-G LV Sing when you're winning

[Brinniel]

It's time for me to vote. I hate voting early, especially since while I do have suspects, none of them are really strong enough for lynching. Plus, there's still several players I want to hear more from. But it's already morning and I have yet to sleep.

I'll vote for someone from my top three suspects.

I'm going back and forth on Mac. Part of me finds him suspicious reading some of his posts, then I come across another and am not so sure. My hesitance makes me think it'd not be such a great idea to vote for him just yet. And anyway, I think I'd like to hear more from him.

tgwbs I'm still very suspicious of. Yet, his response to my questioning his vote for Fea makes me feel a bit better about him. Quite honestly, the main reason I'd rather not vote him toDay is because he's such an entertaining asset to the game and innocent or baddie, I think I'd miss him if he were to be lynched so early. If I still continue to suspect him later on, I won't hesitate to vote him...but for at least toDay I think I'll leave him be.

Which leaves Gollum. Part of me feels a bit guilty voting him because he said he wouldn't be around much due to RL, which is understandable. But he was around for a time, however brief it was. Of course he couldn't catch up that fast, but he could've tried to contribute more than he did and instead I think he underperformed. That sort of thing is just bothersome, but what I really find suspicious is that he abstained from voting at a time when he could've prevented a double lynch. It just doesn't make sense to me. And perhaps he can explain his reasons and even change my mind, but he still hasn't arrived and I cannot wait any longer. If Gollum does survive the Day, I hope he will make a stronger effort to contribute in the future.

So, without further ado:

++Gollum

There is a teeny tiny chance I may show up shortly before deadline if I can manage to wake myself up. But I wouldn't count on it. Seriously.

EDIT: Ooh, some X-posting

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Mac

But completely different conclusions? As far as I can see, we only really differ on the evaluation of Sally...

Okay, maybe the word "completely" is exaggerating it, but we do differ on Gwath, Sally, Boro, and perhaps slightly on Aganzir and Kath (I don't think her vote is the most innocent). And of course, we're complete opposites when it comes to the matter of my vote. Also, you didn't exactly share what you thought of this "Saving Private Nogrod" act. Perhaps you stated your opinions elsewhere, but I'm not going to bother looking again through your posts at this hour.

Okay, now I really need to go to bed...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nothing wrong with calling a bit of attention to it (like we just did). I'm actually hoping it will be spotted by the Critics and Cobbler. The question is, what will they do about it?

I feel dumb, first of all. Noggie was tripping my radar and I completely missed this post. Of course, it's Phantom (and Fea), so I wouldn't have necessarily listened to them anyway but still. I should have noticed the context of Phantom's post and reread Noggie's with that in mind. Well, hindsight, as they say....

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I want to hear more from Mac before voting him.

Sally has said little of substance. Noggie gives more substance, but I find of what he does say, I tend to disagree with more. Of all the candidates so far, he's the one who gives me the biggest wolfish vibe. A feeling is not much, but it's all I can really offer. I don't have time to give it more thought, and I wouldn't mind at all seeing him lynched.

++Nogrod

Oh boy, I'm gonna be late to my appointment...

I can't really say a whole lot against this. I've had rushed votes as well (and will probably have another one toDay) so while it doesn't look good, I'll admit, I wouldn't condem her for doing this either.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Awwww.... did someone want to get rid of me?

Heh heh heh.

Eh, shaddup. *rolls eyes*

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Yeesh... once I have to vote early and believe that you auditioners are smart enough to not do something terribly foolish, and then that.

*shakes head*

The phantom is immortal now and we have to end...*ahem* be enriched by him til the end? Oh... joy...


I have to apologise to Menel. Had I had more time and would have read your later responses to my vote, I would have retracted. You sounded very innocent there. Sorry.


To business.



Could you explain what you mean by "easy way out"?


Yesterday's voting:

Cailineomer's vote for Nogrod, while somewhat suspicious taken by itself, is probably not a critical one. Why would a critic want to get into trouble with one of the more persuading singers when there was not even an indication then that said singer will be eliminated? It would have been a move that could easily have backfired.
Gwath's vote for Nogrod and Fea's vote for Menel don't smell nice. Both are pushing a bandwaggon.
Brinniel's vote for Nogrod I don't like either. She pushes the bandwaggon with very little reason. Then again, a critic would have known that a Day1-lynching of Nogrod would have attracted interest, so would a critic not rather not have positioned herself in such a spot in a bandwaggon? Hmm..
What to do with Sally's vote? Of course every critic would love to see Nogrod lynched so early, but so much that they would risk their own neck for it by putting a vote in such a prominent space? Hardly. Her retraction looks innocent.
Boro's retraction for Menel is to save Nogrod, of course, but considering that he voted me before mostly because I voted Menel, it's a bit eyebrow-raising. Since obviously he was not happy about either choice, why didn't he at least try to bring up a third option?
Aganzir's vote for Nogrod is consequent - she suspected him for a long time. Not suspicious, unless her suspicions before were fabricated.
Wild man's vote for Menel is not suspicious either. He stated he liked to save Nogrod before.
I'll have a look at the other votes later if I think it might enlighten something.

An analysis of the attempted killing of the phantom would be interesting, but I'm sure tp can do that better than I. I'll leave that burden to him.

Is it? While we still have tp's input, we are still down one in numbers and innocent votes. Painting situation better than situation is be suspicious behaviour, wild man.

It was something completely different. Some of your points on the roles seemed so off to me that I thought you were an innocent trying to confuse the critics.

That's why I think in fact that it may not be Brinn. Would someone really do something that obvious? (Of course, I've made that kind of move as a wolf in another game, and it wasn't a slip so much as a temporary lack of sanity, so anything's possible.)

I want to think about who would have killed Phantom in more detail, but it's too early, so I'll have to get to it in the Night.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Sorry guys. I thought I was helping to prevent a double lynch. However I'm not entirely displeased with what has happened thus far (at least the phantom thing was rather funny), besides I would probably have continued to suspect Nog today anyway. However I have a harder time trying to see why Menel was killed. Apparently to save Nog from the gallows yes, but why was he so suspicious in the first place?


Don't know about that. I think his points against sally were not good. What's the sense in accusing someone of something they always do, at least this early?


I did but it was a thing I didn't take very seriously. Divo-Nog could say it, innocent Nog could say it, critic-Nog could say it.

I've noticed Lari's eagerness to agree on suspicions but I wouldn't lynch her because of it (at least yet) because she's new.

I'm getting more scared of Mac every time he posts. There's something that reminds me awfully much of the Mac-wolf I've seen.

The above comment reminds me of his I-told-you attitude (as in Other Minds and Hands, erm, almost two years ago when Boro I think almost got lynched all of a sudden - I don't remember the details; or in Scouring of the Shire vol.2 when people lynched an innocent probably Menel or Might). I don't know if he's always like that and I've just usually ignored it but those are the things I immediately connected his comment to.

edit: xed with Ilya

Indeed. He's a tricksy one, that Mac. That's, again, why he was at the top of my suspicion list yesterDay. He gives off some sort of vibe that he just knows too much, such as his "we can probably learn a lot from Phantom's death(ish) but I'd rather not comment on it" post. Loosely paraphrased, I know, and that in itself isn't too much of a big deal, but as a whole I'm getting a bit of a bad feeling from Mac still.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Oh great, we get to hear phantom talk for the entire game.

And if he doesn't count towards the tally, then it's really like he was killed...the only difference is that while the dead usually can't talk, he can. So when it comes down to numbers, we still had a loss last Night...am I right?

One thing: It's really bothering me that almost everyone is focusing on Nogrod's death alone. What about Menel? He often gets lynched early and I'm irritated to see it happen again. The sudden turn-around on him which resulted in a double lynch is just as suspicious. Especially these players who seemed to be so certain of Noggie's innocence, they contributed to Menel's lynching (some even retracting). And I will mention another reason I chose Noggie for my vote was because I hoped it'd prevent the lynching of Menel who was being heavily considered at the time. I know how it feels to die early several games in a row, and I don't think it was fair at all for Menel to be lynched so early.

Btw, what's so strange about Nogrod getting lynched on Day 1? It happened in Shasta's game and he was a werewolf. It happened in tp's game and he was a werewolf. So really if you go by record, lynching him on Day 1 seemed like a pretty good idea at the time...

Yeah, see the problem with Menel for me was how he justified his vote for Mac. If you'll notice my posts, I think Menel pretty innocent, but I found his vote (or rather his vote motivations) awkward enough that I was uncomfortable. However, Noggie was a bit more suspicious in my brain, not by much, and he was also ahead in the vote tally, so I wanted to push him ahead. Then the Menel-wagon started moving out and we were at risk for a double lynch again. Dang, was I frustrated.

I don't think I was around for those games, Brinn, but you make a good point. I'm not advocating the lynching of Nog on day one in every game, but he's tricksy, that one, and if I suspect him I'd rather not wait around to find out what he is. (Although I legitimately am sad that he's left so early, and now two games in a row. I'd say 'watch out Boro' but I'm afraid that I would be only too correct in my sarcasm.)

Originally Posted by Cailín

Good day, my pretties.

I am truly sorry about what happened to Nogrod and wish I had not voted for him. I already regretted it when I pressed that fatal Submit Reply button, but I was afraid to invoke the Mother Mod Goddess' wrath by retracting and casting another random vote. It was a foolish decision, especially since I still need to ask him a favour. My manly half was not please with the executive decision either.

(Eomer: "Kill Sally, she deserves it")

That's the longest I ever spent apologising for a vote (to Nogrod, not necessarily to my fellow contestants whom I care somewhat less about). This means I'm sincere.

Our Opera Ghost's reputation is apparently so divine that he actually became so. Interesting decision.

The most sensible person today seems to be Brinniel. I agree with her comments on the Menel-wagon. I'm sad he had to leave us, a great voice and marvellous talent.

Short and sweet. Not a lot to post for our lovely Cailin/Eomer. I'd like to see more from these two. Heh, and I love the little 'oh, and kill Sally while you're at it, darlings' bit. Very cute. *grins*

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Short comment now. More to say later.



But Aganzir, we've been wolves together once: you know that, when evil, I give every effort to appear the exact same way I do when innocent...



*nod of approval*

Yes, and you're brilliant at it. Too brilliant, in fact, and from being your partner before I know just how dangerous you can be, little mister.

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Simple. Phantom now function as known innocent, albeit no can vote. All know his viewpoint completely objective. Therefore all can trust phantom.

Incorrect. Well, correct, as we all know he's innocent, but he doesn't count in the innocent tally. So yes, TGWBS, we are in fact down another innocent after last Night.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Mac has fingerprints in both lynch cases, and from what Boro's said I'm beginning to develop some unease.

Yes, but you have to remember that our dear Mac is a smooth one. In fact, that's why the littlest thing sets me off about him, because I've been in his pack before and know how clever he can be. I'm just saying.



Okay, apology time. I had all my quotes done and some reactions when I was afflicted by what I like to call "sudden unexpected headache, can I shoot myself now?" syndrome. Aka I got a migraine and decided a nap was a good plan, but then I didn't wake up again at five or six like I'd planned. Sorry, I know, I'm a bit rubbish at keeping track of time. I'll just submit this now and catch up again. And I'll probably have to vote in the next 45 minutes or so, or else I won't be able to at all.

x'd since the last post I quoted. Ish.

[satansaloser2005]

I think I was a bit off in my x'ing. Meh, my opinions stand, cracked though they may be.

Interesting vote, Brinn. I've gotten nothing solid from Gollum yet (as in I completely forgot he's in the game, which never bodes well, but I guess it's only Day Two) so I suppose if I have to semi-random vote this early in the Day I would not feel too bad about going for him as well. If he ended up innocent and did in fact get lynched, at least it wouldn't be yet another most-likely helpful villager off our roster.

I'll leave it for a bit and go get ready for work, then check the thread again before voting. Sorry, it's early and I'm not a morning person. Back in a bit.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Fea

2) the phantom doesn't have any special knowledge that we know of, so anything he says is just as likely to be dead wrong as anything any of the rest of us say. So saying we can all trust him is like saying we can all trust pre-death Nog, or pre-death Menel

Wild Man say every game, every game none listen. Perhaps Fea critic. Perhaps Wild Man critic. Therefore, cannot trust what you say, cannot trust what Wild Man say. However, Phantom, and Nog, and Menel, NOT critic. Therefore, though not more knowledgable, still more objective, still can trust.

Wild Man obviously glad Brinn no vote him or Mac. However, Wild Man think unwise vote Gollum. Currently, suspicion of Gollum base on lack of input, which poor reason Day 2. Also, Wild Man think Moddess not make Gollum gifted/critic, therefore innocent.

[satansaloser2005]

Okay, I thought of something while I was away for a bit.

We all know Gollum didn't vote yesterDay. Neither did some other people (another person....whatever) but we know for certain that he was around.

He could have broken the double lynch. He had every opportunity to break the double lynch. Now, I realize he didn't have a lot to base a vote on and I understand that, but I can't see an innocent villager just sitting back and watching the chaos as everyone scrambles to prevent the deaths of two (now known, then potential) innocents. It just sits wrong to me. I don't know who I would have preferred him to vote, honestly, but I think that in that situation (and I know this sounds wrong, but I'm in a rush) I don't care who he would have voted for, so long as he voted to break the tie. (This opinion is obviously biased by the fact that we now know that both Nog and Menl were innocent, but still. I've only seen one successful double lynch -ever- and that's why I think an innocent would have tried to prevent a frivolous one.)

And again, feel free to overrrule me if someone else seems more suspicious, but for now I have to go or I'll be late for work.


++Gollum


If you fine people kill me while I'm gone, so be it, it's been lovely playing with you all. Fortunately, I'm optimistic to survive the Day, and hopefully you can catch a wolf (again, hopefully Gollum, but you know how accurate a blonde like me is) while I'm away. Enjoy the rest of the day dearies!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Therefore, though not more knowledgable, still more objective, still can trust.

Unless his incarnation of OG in game is anything like the Opera Ghost of the books! All I'm saying is we shouldn't trust that just because he's not a critic means he has the best interest of anybody but himself in mind. The Phantom of the literature really loved slipping nooses, 'Punjab lassos,' around the necks of anybody who caught sight of him. So maybe he's the mild mannered incarnation of the romantic music lover of the deep who Andrew Lloyd Webber gave some bone-chilling solos to, or maybe our resident Undead is a bit closer to the character I fell hard for, who was sold to a freak show as a child and whose closest 'friend' was one of the two women in his life who ever pitied him, and I'll hint for you: one wasn't his mother.

From Wiki, about Erik in the novel:

Originally Posted by Wiki

In Gaston Leroux's novel, the Phantom (named Erik) traveled throughout the world after running away from home at a young age. During his travels he visited India where he learned to kill people using the Punjab lasso. According to Erik's old friend, the daroga, the Punjab lasso that Erik wields is "curiously made from catgut" (from the Leonard Wolf translation) and only by placing your hand at the level of your eyes (thus stopping the lasso from closing completely and strangling the victim) can one escape it. This is attributed to Erik's skill at strangling.

When the daroga brought Erik to Persia, he used his skills at using the lasso in his new job as the Shah's personal assassin, a job he excelled at due to his lack of scruples. He also used it to entertain the Sultana.


When Erik moved to France he kept a Punjab lasso in the torture chamber he built. Thus, the victims of the chamber would have the option of ending their lives rather than endure its tortures.


When the sceneshifter, Joseph Buquet, found the entrance to Erik's 'house' in the third cellar of the opera house, he fell into the chamber and used the lasso to kill himself.


Later when the daroga and the Vicomte de Chagny went in search of Christine Daae, whom Erik had kidnapped, they found a used Punjab lasso lying on the ground leading into the Phantom's chamber. Later in their journey to rescue Christine they fell into the torture chamber, where the daroga contemplated using the lasso to end his life as the tortures got worse.

So while we're of course free to assume that Mith would never, ever play games with us wherein she gives the phantom an alter ego known for having no scruples and being an exceptionally brilliant and unrepentant serial killer, I think it's foolish to ignore the literature unless she tells us point blank that the phantom (person, not character) is on the side of the ordos.

Also, Wild Man think Moddess not make Gollum gifted/critic, therefore innocent.

A note on this: I asked Mith pre-game and she told me the roles would be randomized.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Sally

[Gollum] could have broken the double lynch.

At time, we no know it be double lynch.

Originally Posted by Fea

I asked Mith pre-game and she told me the roles would be randomized.

Wild Man also ask Mith. Mostly randomize, she say.

Re:Opera Ghost. Wild Man think he act in interest of all singer thus far. Also, Wild Man see no independent victory condition for Opera Ghost, seeing as he no can vote, no can die.

[the guy who be short]

Most Innocent
Boro
Kath
-----------------
Brinniel
Gollum
Mac
***************
Lariren-Strongbow-Gwath-Cailineomer
***************
Ilya
Shastanis
Sally
-----------------
Fea-Aganzir
Most Guilty

About two-plus-half man-hour til deadline. Wild Man hope people vote early today, prevent repeat yesterday debacle. Therefore, for previous reason:

++FEANOR

[Cailín]

People.... Day 2 and 9 pages of chatter... I had forgotten how garrulous you all are.

I am pretty much convinced Gollum is innocent and hope a more suitable lynching candidate shall be found. Instead, I am becoming wary of Sally, whose voting behaviour is suspicious (yes, I did think the last minute doubts were odd) and her response to accusations and remarks directed her way is just... Well, she has always been a remarkably fluffy player, of course.

Can I also ask what the point of Ilya's astounding collection of quotations is?

As for the many other players, be assured that I am watching you. In a non-phantom, but actually having the power of a vote-way.

[Lariren Shadow]

While I'm working on my list I believe I have the votes so far right:
Brinn- Gollum
Sally- Gollum
TGWBS- Fea

[Boromir88]

Alright then, would you please give a detailed explanation as to why you retracted your vote and voted Menel instead?~Brinn

Sure thing. I didn't want Nog gone on Day 1. I felt obligated to try and stop his lynching on Day 1, as he has done many more times for me. And why Menel? There wasn't anyone else, and the adrenaline at the end got to me. I saw things that Menel said that at the time looked suspicious; which I pointed out.

Specifically:

If you found something suspicious, I think everyone deserves to hear it.

And I said to reply:

Who said what was surmised about Nogrod, between them, was something suspicious?

It looked like Menel was trying to get a reason to, if not vote for Nog himself, get others to find Nog suspicious. So, I asked, who ever said what tp and Fea were clueing at was something suspicious?

At the time I thought it suspicious (odd, strange, whatever you want to call it) that Menel assumed they found something suspicious against Nogrod. It doesn't make any sense now because Menel voted for Mac, and doesn't save himself, and now that it's all over the Menel quote I questioned looks more like frustration towards tp and Fea for speaking in riddles, not about Nogrod at all.

There's nothing wrong with looking at the Nogrod voters. Not at all. The big deal was that at the time, most players were solely focusing on the Nogrod voters and seemed to forget that Menel was also lynched.~Brinn

Fair point and there's no reason we can't be all inclusive.

This make Fea seem even more critic.~tgwbs

This was tgwbs response to Fea saying she thought tp was the seer. If Fea is a critic that doesn't look very good. She is capable of being absolutely blunt about her choices and her thoughts.

Although Wild Man now thoroughly prejudice, this seem critic question to him.

And this is Wild Man's response to Fea's questioning about the cobbler. I think with this one prejudice clouds Wild Man's judgement . There has been virtually no cobbler talk and we can't forget about the cobbler in this one. I saw it as a chance to either flush out the real cobbler, or in the very least, get us talking about the cobbler.

My answer is I didn't mean to nor did I intend to.~Lari

That makes sense, and now I'm 98% confident in your innocence. One of the things that bothered me was when you said something like "By the looks of it I should be suspecting Nogrod."

I chalked it up as either a new wolf making a slip, or a new singer trying to find her range. Your explanation makes me believe the latter.

Huh the who? First, what fingerprint do I have on Nogrod's carcass? Second, all Boro said about me referred to a previous game and, objectively, that's really not something that should play a central part in ones suspicions (Boro's excluded).~Mac

Nice catch. That made me perk up pretty fast too, because I have no idea what I said today, and why Ilya said what she thought I said.

Ok, that's a mess, so let me just ask you Ilya - what did I say about Mac that you're referring to? Also, how was Mac involved in the Nogrod voters?

I can't really say a whole lot against this. I've had rushed votes as well (and will probably have another one toDay) so while it doesn't look good, I'll admit, I wouldn't condem her for doing this either.~sally

I will say Brinn's vote looks honestly innocent, now whether she's being honest and innocent or faking it, that is still to be determined.

I know Mith used the phrase 'blind drop' and I assume that means that the Cobbler doesn't get to PM the Critics (that the Cobbler doesn't know their identity) but I just wondered if it meant that the Cobbler doesn't actually know the info that xe is acquiring.~Fea

But see the massive inconsistancy? How could you justify a dead drop info to the wolves if the Cobbler doesn't know the info xe is dropping off? Xe's a sneak, not a hallucinajenic.

edit: crossed with everyone since Fea's post

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Page One:

Says Gwath will be unjustly lynched (seems like a joke).
Says Nog will help him (the phantom) catch the critics (seen as a seer hint?).
Says Cailineomer will die at night.
Says I'm up to something (no surprise there, I'm always up to something).
Says Lari's safe a few days (newbie free pass).
Says he can't talk to Boro (reference to The Republic).
Says Agan's a critic.
Says Sally's innocent.

Claims he was the first Seer dream.

Page Two:

Says Nog will show everybody how to sing. Boro catches this and mentions it later. 'Sing like a bird' maybe remembered by ordos as slang for somebody giving up knowledge/maybe people thought he was the Cobbler, which might explain the lynching.

Says it's the first time he's ever been afraid of the cobbler, that the cobbler will dream of gifteds and tell the wolves. If phantom was ordo, he always points out that the only use of an ordo really is to distract the critics from the gifteds. Since that's the only use of an ordo, if the phantom was ordo, he shouldn't be afraid of the cobbler. Logical progression to 'phantom must be gifted if phantom is worried about cobbler'?

Says it's a terrible idea for the seer to try to look like the cobbler to survive at night. Says a post or so later that he is the cobbler.

Hero worships Alan Rickman.

Page 3.

Is impressed with Strongbow for researching - says won't vote for him.

Says if he was a Critic, he'd be gunning for the Lovers.

Says that Mac figured something out, but only partially. (Later explains this as 'I wanted him to think I was a Lover, but didn't want to pin down a specific partner.')

Says to the werewolves "You will kill Nog" in attempt to 'subtly manipulate.' You know, subtly.

Page 4.

--

Okay, have to go for now, but I'll get back to this later...

[the phantom]

At this stage we're still just treading water. Until the Seer, a Critic, or possibly Walter show up dead, we cannot pretend to know much.

In these sorts of situations I generally take a blind shot at a submarine. I mean- you know the Critics aren't going to off them. No, no, the Critics will be attempting to off the Lovers or the Seer. And why might they think someone is a Lover or the Seer? Because of their words.

And so it follows that the more you speak the more likely it is that you will say something that will cause the Critics to fear that you are gifted.

That should be a bit of comfort to those of you who fear Fea or Boro- if they aren't Critics then they'll be Night killed rather soon. For without a doubt the both have them have said something incriminating (from the perspective of the Critics).

Overall, I would encourage any Ordo out there to offer yourself to the Critics tonight. Make yourself look like a juicy target.

Phantom has spoken.

Shamed into solitude
Shunned by the multitude
I learned to listen
In my dark, my heart heard music