Beorn

[Gordis]

In a normal fantasy novel when strange creatures like green octopuses or two- headed rats or giant were-bears are spotted somewhere, the first thing to do is to check: isn't there a secret genetic laboratory in the vicinity?

In fact there are two of them close to Beorn's dwelling:

1. Radagast's Rhosgobel (that's why I like The Might's theory) and

2. Dol Guldur, where a certain Necromancer is busy breeding all sorts of fell beasts, olog-hai, uruks, werewolves etc. Why not were-bears?
Perhaps some laboratory creatures had escaped and multiplied in freedom?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I've had thoughts similar to the Might's connections with Radagast and his reported mastery of changes of shapes and hues, and they seem to make the most sense to me. Sometimes, though, I wonder if there is any similarity to the notion that Thorondor was a Maia who took the form of an Eagle, and from him the Great Eagles of Middle-earth descended (don't ask me to cite where in the HoME books I read this; I'm recovering from the flu, and it's a marvel my brain is functioning much at all ). If there is precedent for certain unusual but seemingly "normal" creatures in ME having this kind of origin, it's possible that Beorn had a distant ancestor descended from some Maia of Orome or Yavanna who inhabited ME during its early ages and favored the shape of a great bear, whose story we simply have never heard. This may be completely fever dreams, but it might point to a kind of explanation that Tolkien, alas, never got around to actually imagining, or writing.

That aside, I'm with the Radagast connection.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

it's possible that Beorn had a distant ancestor descended from some Maia of Orome or Yavanna

Now, whose Maia was Radagast/Aiwendil? Wasn't he Yavanna's (as I seem to remember)?
Were the Istari required to stay celibatary? Probably yes, but how do we know that Radagast (who is described as a failure in almost every other respect) staid true to his orders?
So maybe Beorn's shape-shifting ability was not something learned from Radagast, but inherited from him? And if the fateful mating had taken place far enough back in time (say, a couple of centuries), Beorn wouldn't remember him as his ancestor, but just as a wizard he'd met once or twice upon a time...

[Gordis]

I simply loved this theory, Pitchwife! Ingenious.

It reminds me of the debate on the werewolves: there is an idea that they were all Gorthaur's children/cubs - when he assumed a wolf-form himself and showed his attentions to female wolves.

Not that I believe this to be true...

On the other hand, I don't believe that shape-shifting is simply a spell that can be learned by anyone. Remember, the Maia Sauron lost his own ability to shape-shift after the Downfall. If it were but a simple spell, he would have found it, undoubtedly. But it must have been his own inherent ability as a Maia.

We are not even expressly told that the Istari had this ability themselves. The words that Rhadagast "was a master of shapes and changes of hue" are a bit ambigous and might be part of the earlier conception (see below). Saruman surely could look like Gandalf, if he wished so, but it was more like disguise than true shape-shifting. There is no indication that Gandalf could shape-shift. In fact, I am sure he couldn't - otherwise he wouldn't need Eagles to fly. and Shadowfax to ride.

I believe that in early Tolkien's writings (Lay of Leithian, Tale of Beren and Luthien, the Hobbit, and even the beginning of LOTR), shape-shifting was considered no big deal, a rather simple thing to do. Not only Sauron and Turingwethil could shape-shift, but also Luthien and Finrod, Beren, Beorn and his people, Radagast, the nazgul (who in the drafts assumed the shape of giant vultures). But then, while Tolkien was writing the Return of the King, he greatly restricted the shape-shifting ability, leaving it maybe for only the strongest Maiar and Valar. Nazgul assuredly lost the ability to shape-shift, and I think the Istari and Sauron lost it at this point as well.

Yet as the two first volumes of LOTR were likely already in print, Tolkien failed to edit some remnants of the earlier ideas. I think the words about Radagast are among these. But the worst bug is left in TT:

Gandalf: “For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. […]But they have not yet been allowed to cross the River, and Saruman does not know of this new shape in which the Ringwraiths have been clad.

[The Might]

Nice find there, Gordis!

And also in LotR I cannot recall any time when the Beornings are mentioned as shapeshifters, but only as good, valiant Men with high tolls and not very fond of Dwarves, still keeping the High Pass open. Also, several times the connection to the Eotheod, the Bardings and the Woodmen is mentioned, moving thus into the direction of normal descent rather than explanations like Gandalf's in the Hobbit.

Who knows? Maybe we won't find out what Tolkien really thought of the Beornings, for as he says in letter 187:

... while many like you demand maps, others wish for geological indications rather than places; many want Elvish grammars, phonol*ogies, and specimens; some want metrics and prosodies.... Musicians want tunes, and musical notation; archaeologists want ce*ramics and metallurgy; botanists want a more accurate description of the mallorn, of elanor, niphredil, alfirin, mallos, and symbelmynë, historians want more details about the social and political structure of Gondor; general enquirers want information about the Wainriders, the Harad, Dwarvish origins, the Dead Men, the Beornings, and the missing two wizards (out of five).

And as he had said in the letter 160:

I am not now at all sure that the tendency to treat the whole thing as a kind of vast game is really good – certainly not for me who find that kind of thing only too fatally attractive. It is, I sup*pose, a tribute to the curious effect that a story has, when based on very elaborate and detailed workings, of geography, chronology, and language, that so many should clamour for sheer "information," or "lore."

He didn't necessarily set out to explain everything with a lot of details, and I believe in some other place he says that secrets and unexplainable things belong to this fantastic age his stories take place in.

But, a clear tendency towards simple men, related to other groups in the area and without any great powers, can be noticed.


As for your idea Pitchwife, it is a nice idea but somehow seems fairly unlikely especially considering Radagast's peculiar habits. He loved birds and beasts and the only thing he could maybe fall in love with was a Goldberry-like nature spirit, a spirit rather symbolising animals than plants. I just can't seem him having a romance with a simple woman of the mountains.

[Gordis]

Hmm... I thought Pitchwife was suggesting Radagast's romance with a she-bear, not a comely woman of the mountains....

[The Might]

Wait... what?
No, I thought with some woman.
Maia + Bear = Magician ?!

[The Might]

That's an awesome idea, Gordis!

Dol Guldur could, at least theoretically, be an idea. I mean, what if the Necromancer started testing weird stuff on people, trying to turn them into mighty bears that would aid his cause.

Some predecessors of Beorn then escaped or were maybe let loose into the wild, but perhaps because they retained too much humanity they were safe to be around when in human form and were not ready to serve Sauron. Maybe they escaped sometime during the Watchful Peace when Sauron wasn't there, made their way into the Misty Mountains and left again when the Orcs arrived.

But here comes the big problem in the Dol Guldur theory... if Beorn's kind had been actually created by Sauron in some way, then this skill would be not something learned, but rather something passed on genetically. It was in their blood to have this power and Beorn inherited it that way, perhaps as the last of his line.

But why would he then be called a magician? A magician cannot perform tricks as if he has the knowledge in his blood, he learns the tricks first. This is why it would only make sense for Beorn to have been tought shapeshifting by someone who already mastered it. Either his parents in the mountains, who for whatever reason knew this, or Radagast.

Now, of course Sauron may have tought them this, but I doubt it since it was not his style. He would not teach minions how to gain greater power, he would like his master from the First Age rather torment and use dark magic on them.


Ok, now to Beorn's size. I know it sounds incredible that he was this big, but don't be so sure that it was something special really. Now, we know that the men of the mountains he probably descended from were related to the Woodmen, the Eotheod and the Bardings, meaning they all had ancestors in some distant House of Men from the First Age.

However, in Tolkien's works Men are not always what we regard as Men. There are Hobbits as smaller variant and then there are the Giants, a very weird race that appears to have lived in the Misty Mountains as well and who were (I can't the original quote for now) a larger version of men, just like Hobbits were the small one. This is how Tolkien refered to them, still men. Now, although in other early writing (BoLT) Tolkien regards them as evil and creations of Melkor in the Hobbit it appears that nice Giants do exist, as Gandalf wants to find one to block the entrance to the Front Porch.

This means that giant sized men did exist, they were there in the Hobbit, so Beorn's size was nothing really special.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but what if some predecessor of Beorn fell in love with a Giant and then... you know... Beorn inherited some of the Giant's qualities... more or less like Hagrid.

Unfortunately we learn nothing new about Giants in LotR, the only hint given is when the Fellowship hears voices when trying to use the Redhorn Pass.


PS: I am really enjoying the thread.


EDIT: regarding this idea, Ibri, of course it is plausible, but in my opinion not really probable. Gandalf was wisest of all Maia, he probably knew many if not all of them and I would expect him to be informed about these kind of things especially after all those extensive voyages through M-e. That's my problem, I find it difficult to believe that a Maia would take the form of a shapeshifter and marry a man/woman in the mountains like Melian did with Thingol and give birth to such a line. Still plausible though.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by The Might

That's an awesome idea, Gordis!



Ok, now to Beorn's size. I know it sounds incredible that he was this big, but don't be so sure that it was something special really. Now, we know that the men of the mountains he probably descended from were related to the Woodmen, the Eotheod and the Bardings, meaning they all had ancestors in some distant House of Men from the First Age.

However, in Tolkien's works Men are not always what we regard as Men. There are Hobbits as smaller variant and then there are the Giants, a very weird race that appears to have lived in the Misty Mountains as well and who were (I can't the original quote for now) a larger version of men, just like Hobbits were the small one. This is how Tolkien refered to them, still men. Now, although in other early writing (BoLT) Tolkien regards them as evil and creations of Melkor in the Hobbit it appears that nice Giants do exist, as Gandalf wants to find one to block the entrance to the Front Porch.

This means that giant sized men did exist, they were there in the Hobbit, so Beorn's size was nothing really special.

Pure speculation on my part of course, but what if some predecessor of Beorn fell in love with a Giant and then... you know... Beorn inherited some of the Giant's qualities... more or less like Hagrid.

Unfortunately we learn nothing new about Giants in LotR, the only hint given is when the Fellowship hears voices when trying to use the Redhorn Pass.

I never thought of the Giant angle and they were an offshoot of Man just like Hobbits. The fact Beorn comes from the Mountains would make sense of him sharing the size traits of the Giants of the Misty Mountains.

[The Might]

About the wizard part, he may not have really been aware about the connection between Radagast and Gandalf before really.

"I am Gandalf," said the wizard.
"Never heard of him," growled the man, "And what's this little fellow?" he said, stooping down to frown at the hobbit with his bushy eyebrows.
"That is Mr. Baggins, a hobbit of good family and unimpeachable reputation," said Gandalf. Bilbo bowed. He had no hat to take off, and was painfully conscious of his many missing buttons. "I am a wizard," continued Gandalf. "I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?"
"Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again," said Beorn. "Well, now I know who you are, or who you say you are. What do you want?"

So it appears that Beorn had no idea what wizards were or who Gandalf truly was.
Now, you may say that if had indeed learned so much from Radagast he would not call him only "not a bad fellow" and say they only met "now and again".
I admit that a bit more would be expected from Beorn when speaking of the one that passed this knowledge on to him, but still I see no theory being more likely than this one.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by The Might

Now, you may say that if had indeed learned so much from Radagast he would not call him only "not a bad fellow" and say they only met "now and again". I admit that a bit more would be expected from Beorn when speaking of the one that passed this knowledge on to him, but still I see no theory being more likely than this one.

One would expect Beorn to be more knowledgeable about wizards and have a closer relationship to Radagast, if he learned this skill from him, but is there any evidence that Beorn is the very first of his line to have this ability? Radagast has been in ME for nearly 2000 years by the time of the Hobbit; could he have taught the skill to one of Beorn's forefathers, who taught it to his son, who taught it to his son, etc.? If this is the case, then Beorn may not have more than a passing acquaintance with Radagast (who was becoming more of a homebody by this time, anyway), and yet the skill could still have come from Radagast, ultimately. That's, to me, a more plausible origin that allows for things like the lack of knowledge about wizards, and yet permits a relatively more contemporary origin of skill than something reaching back into the Elder Days.

[Andsigil]

I've always wondered about Tolkien's, meaning the man's and the author's, preferences for animals when I read about Beorn.

For example, it seems that Tolkien disliked crows, wolves, and reptiles, which is why he made them villains in his books in the form of crebain, wargs (and Carcharoth), and wyrms. Assuming Tolkien acted on his prejudices by paralleling European mythogy, wolves, to the best of my knowledge, have always been villains in European myths (the exception being the wet nurse of Romulus and Remus). And and one has to look far and wide to find a culture which has positive things to say about snakes in its mythology.

Now, while crows are often portrayed as villains in old tales, Norse mythology, which with Tolkien was no doubt quite knowledgeable, shows them as positively as the sidekicks of Odin in the form of Hugin and Munin. Perhaps Tolkien's dislike for crows was personal, seeing them as carrion eaters and thieves. I'm not certain but I can picture the old man throwing rocks at the crows in his back yard which were stealing food from the bird feeder which he had intended for thrushes.

Tolkien portrays other animals as heroic and noble: hounds, horses, eagles, and bears. The bears are an interesting choice for him to portray positively. Bears are fairly scarce in European myths as far as I know. It's long been assumed that the Viking berserkers got the name from the Swedish "Bärsärk" and wore bear skins as a totem. The parallels between Beorn and the beserkers is obvious, but the Norsemen portray them as barbaric and savage killers, which Beorn is obviously not.

So, as I started to say in the beginning, I wonder what personal preferences led Tolkien to portray bears as being on the side of Good in Middle Earth. Tolkien wouldn't have made Beorn what he was unless he, himself, liked bears for some reason.

[The Might]

Well, I'll try to look up some info on bears in mythology an repost them here.

Firstly, we know that Tolkien had extensively studied Norse mythology and particularly the Finnish language when creating the Elvish tongues.
For the Finns the bear has a very important place in their culture, the bear was considered the spirit of the forefathers. It also is the national animal of Finland.
And in many other countries including Germany and Russia bears play an important role often being used symbolically as a way to portray the nation itself and is found in many fairytales.
And even when I think back to my childhood in Romania I remember that the bear is considered to be the king of the forest there and also appears in many fairytales that I used to enjoy.
So I really don't see why the bear would then have to represent anything negative in M-e after Tolkien studied its importance for Europeans.


Ibri, that is a great idea that seems to explain everything we read about in the books. It makes sense that Radagast may have often frequented the Misty Mountains in company of the beasts there, bears as well, and then found these men living there.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Now, while crows are often portrayed as villains in old tales, Norse mythology, which with Tolkien was no doubt quite knowledgeable, shows them as positively as the sidekicks of Odin in the form of Hugin and Munin.

The parallels between Beorn and the beserkers is obvious, but the Norsemen portray them as barbaric and savage killers, which Beorn is obviously not.

I'm at work currently, so I am going off my fading memory, but I believe Hugin and Munin were ravens and not crows. Ravens are reverenced by Dwarves in the Hobbit, whereas crows are not (also, 'stormcrow' and 'crows and gibbets' being obvious epithets).

Berserkers being savage and barbaric would depend on one's point of view. Perhaps the Franks or Anglo-Saxons believed they were, but among the various denominations of Norsemen they were considered great warriors and heroes.

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

More seriously, why did Tolkien (in The Hobbit) portray crows as bad but
ravens as good and noble? Is there some northern mythological
reason?

See above. Ravens were Odin's special agents.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

2. Dol Guldur, where a certain Necromancer is busy breeding all sorts of fell beasts, olog-hai, uruks, werewolves etc. Why not were-bears?
Perhaps some laboratory creatures had escaped and multiplied in freedom?

I think that this is scenario is highly unlikely, Beorn hated Goblins with a passion, I don't think that anything that Sauron might have made would suddenly turn against him.

I'm going to look up more on Radagast and see if I can find a connection. Thanks for bringing that up Might.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Gordis

In a normal fantasy novel when strange creatures like green octopuses or two- headed rats or giant were-bears are spotted somewhere, the first thing to do is to check: isn't there a secret genetic laboratory in the vicinity?

In fact there are two of them close to Beorn's dwelling:

1. Radagast's Rhosgobel (that's why I like The Might's theory) and

The only thing that would make me doubt this is Beorn's seeming lack of being impressed by the fact Gandalf was a Wizard. In the course of the dialog between Beorn and Gandalf when Gandalf was telling the story of their crossing the Misty Mountains, there is no awe or reverence of Gandalf or his exploits. I think he make a comment, "it is some good being a Wizard then" and "I wish I had been there, I would have given them more than fireworks."

One would expect this if Beorn's abilities were from an experimentation of Radaghast or knowledge taught by him, he would have a reverence for a Wizard and their abilities.