Gandalf, blood of hobbits on his hands?

[The Might]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

TM,

As for Tolkien's depiction of the alliance between Rohan and Gondor lasting, they were like people in a way which the people of Khand and Harad were not like them.

And history on your side? Maybe our recent history of the 19th and 20th century. But our history is not M-e's history. Don't be so sure that men aren't capable of sustaining an alliance for a long period of time, especially if it was based on such positive values.

EDIT: as I said, violence would be the last means eventually, I said that above. If Sauron's minions had no conscience and could not be reasoned with, which is debatable, nothing else could be done about it. And this I agree with, it was a point made by Morthoron I believe that only an enemy with conscience can be persuaded without fighting, a valid point which I accept. So Sauron would also in my opinion NOT have all the time in M-e.

[Andsigil]

And history on your side? Maybe our recent history of the 19th and 20th century. But our history is not M-e's history. Don't be so sure that men aren't capable of sustaining an alliance for a long period of time, especially if it was based on such positive values.

EDIT: as I said, violence would be the last means eventually, I said that above. If Sauron's minions had no conscience and could not be reasoned with, which is debatable, nothing else could be done about it. And this I agree with, it was a point made by Morthoron I believe that only an enemy with conscience can be persuaded without fighting, a valid point which I accept. So Sauron would also in my opinion NOT have all the time in M-e.

It's more than just our recent history. Show me how many alliances in the last 4000 years have lasted more than, say, two centuries. Gondor and Rohan were very much the exception, and not the rule.

[The Might]

So then, tell me, in what way are the Haradrim or the Variags different? Incapable of making lasting alliances? Why, is it in their blood, in their genes, is there anything about them that makes them incapable to act like the Rohirrim and the Gondorians?

Sorry for my indeed blunt response, but when I see no proof at all for your speculation of them being different I speculate myself.

And as I said, stop putting an equal sign between M-e and our world. Yes, Tolkien said something about us being in the Seventh Age and some British seaman having ended up in Aman and having talked to Pengolodh and other Elves. But let's be serious, Arda is not the Earth, the histories are different, we are talking about a fantasy world. And so why should Gondor and Rohan be an exception? Just because it happened to work out properly, what about alliances between Elves and Men in the First Age. They all worked out, except the one with the Easterlings unfortunately. Same goes for those between Elves, except for the Children of Feanor.

Why is it so difficult to accept that maybe in M-e alliances between good people turned out right and could stay that way. Only because in our world that was not the case? Doesn't Tolkien maybe want to teach us a lesson here, that alliances for good are possible and desirable and can last? Or is he pointing out that M-e is just as common and plain as our world?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Might

So then, tell me, in what way are the Haradrim or the Variags different? Incapable of making lasting alliances? Why, is it in their blood, in their genes, is there anything about them that makes them incapable to act like the Rohirrim and the Gondorians?

Culture, for starters. They share nothing in common culturally. Certainly, alliances can be made between total opposites, but they rarely have staying power.

Sorry for my indeed blunt response, but when I see no proof at all for your speculation of them being different I speculate myself.

And your speculation is absurd. Good God, what are they teaching young people in schools these days? "Go for the racist label as soon as possible in any debate!" Ridiculous. Contemptible.

And as I said, stop putting an equal sign between M-e and our world. Yes, Tolkien said something about us being in the Seventh Age and some British seaman having ended up in Aman and having talked to Pengolodh and other Elves. But let's be serious, Arda is not the Earth, the histories are different, we are talking about a fantasy world. And so why should Gondor and Rohan be an exception? Just because it happened to work out properly, what about alliances between Elves and Men in the First Age. They all worked out, except the one with the Easterlings unfortunately. Same goes for those between Elves, except for the Children of Feanor.

Why is it so difficult to accept that maybe in M-e alliances between good people turned out right and could stay that way. Only because in our world that was not the case? Doesn't Tolkien maybe want to teach us a lesson here, that alliances for good are possible and desirable and can last? Or is he pointing out that M-e is just as common and plain as our world?

You're actually the one putting equal signs between this world (the current, modern one) and ME, with your call for alliances, dialogue, and understanding. As Morthoron already pointed out, alliances like you speak of are a recent invention.

Tolkien was a student of history, languages, and mythology. It's entirely fair to take this world's history and mythology as his base, and then assume he changed things from there. Therefore, things like human emotions and rationale maintain a consistency with this world and we don't find superfluous situations like a Khand-Gondor alliance, beautiful in its contrived and 21st century multiculturalism, in opposition of Sauron, forever keeping him at bay (as if...), and formed out of mutual brotherhood and love so as not to offend your sensibilities against what you think is jingoism.