Gandalf in the 2nd Millennium of the Third Age

[The Might]

Speculation based on quotes is speculation nonetheless.

Speaking of Carn Dum, I believe I made a mistake in that last post. What I meant under "never went to Angmar" was actually never confrontated the W-k in the North.
Why are we not told of any special helper? Only because of his guise? At least Elves could have pierced through it, Glorfindel may have realised who Gandalf was if he was wondering about in that time.

That is the problem I have with these ideas - there is no foundation, no hints of any Maiarian activity. And as much as Gandalf may have liked guises we do see that when it came down to battle he did not hide himself.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by The Might

Speculation based on quotes is speculation nonetheless.

.

Not sure what you are referring to here, but the fact that he went to Angmar is not speculation.

Otherwise, the hope was that perhaps somebody came across some other passage somewhere that would move the other issues beyond speculation.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

There doesn't appear to be any question that, at some time, Gandalf traveled to Angmar, but there is also little question, I think, that he did not engage the Witch King in any direct manner. In LotR, "The Siege of Gondor," when Gandalf tells Denethor that the WK has come and mastered the outer walls of Minas Tirith, it is said:

"Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you," said Denethor. "For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?"

Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly. "But our trial of strength is not yet come."

To me, this says beyond question that Gandalf and the WK had never faced off against one another. If Gandalf traveled in Angmar during the WK's reign, I suspect it was to gather information that could be used to aid the cause of those who opposed him, and Sauron.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There doesn't appear to be any question that, at some time, Gandalf traveled to Angmar, but there is also little question, I think, that he did not engage the Witch King in any direct manner. In LotR, "The Siege of Gondor," when Gandalf tells Denethor that the WK has come and mastered the outer walls of Minas Tirith, it is said:



To me, this says beyond question that Gandalf and the WK had never faced off against one another. If Gandalf traveled in Angmar during the WK's reign, I suspect it was to gather information that could be used to aid the cause of those who opposed him, and Sauron.

Yes, certainly we would have heard about a direct matchup of the two in the Second Millennium. Gandalf seemed to rely on disguises to enter these areas--he certainly did when he went into Dol Goldur in 2850. So apparently he went in and out of Angmar (like Dol Goldur) without revealing his identity...

But was not the Witch King at the battle between Gandalf and the Nazgul at Weathertop? The description of events given by Gandalf at The Council of Elrond (Fellowship of the Ring) says

the Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.

and then that when he himself (Gandalf) reached Weathertop

they were there before me.

I suppose one could argue that the WK was not there, but then Gandalf says (as an explanation of why he did not remain) that

...and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels.

[Gordis]

The Witch-King certainly was among those who besieged Gandalf at Weathertop. The scene is described in Marquette MSS 4/2/36 "the Hunt for the Ring" published in RC p.167-8.

[On 2 October the four Black Riders who were sent ahead] assemble near Weathertop. [One] remains [while three] go on eastwards on or near Road. ... Oct. 3: Gandalf reaches Weathertop but does not overtake [Witch-king and other four Riders]; for they become aware of his approach as he overtakes them on Shadowfax, and withdraw into hiding beside the road. They close in behind. [The Witch-king] is both pleased and puzzled. For a while he had been in great fear, thinking that by some means Gandalf had got possession of the Ring and was now the Bearer; but as Gandalf passes he is aware that Gandalf has not got the Ring. What is he pursuing? He himself must be after the escaping Bearer; and it must therefore somehow have gone on far ahead. But Gandalf is a great power and enemy. He must be dealt with, and yet that needs great force.
[The five] follow Gandalf hotly to Weathertop. Since Gandalf halts there, [the Witch-King] suspects that that is a trysting place.
Gandalf is attacked by [the five plus the rider who had stayed near Weathertop] on Weathertop on night 3-4. Frodo and Aragorn see the light of the battle in the sky from their camp.
Oct. 4: Gandalf repulses the Nazgûl and escapes northwards at Sunrise, and follows the Hoarwell up towards the mountains. [Four Riders] are sent in pursuit (mainly because [the Witch-king] thinks it possible he may know of the whereabouts or course of the Bearer). But [the Witch-king and Khamûl] remain watching Weathertop. Thus they become aware of the approach of Frodo on Oct. 5. [The other three] return from East.

Now to the quote given by Ibrin("But our trial of strength is not yet come." ).
I think we must distinguish between the passing confrontations the WK and Gandalf have had before and the real "trial of strength", a fight to death that was about to happen at the Gates of Minas Tirith.

Gandalf the Grey had limitations imposed by the Valar :

[the Wizards] came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.- TY, LOTR

So to go to Carn-Dum, find its King and try to kill him in a direct duel would have been strongly against the rules. All Gandal'f did at Weathertop and likely in similar situations before, was defend himself, when attacked, and then withdraw at the first opportunity. It was never a real "trial of strength".

In the same, almost anonymous, way Gandalf took part in battles. For instance in the battle of the Five Armies Gandalf was even wounded in the arm (see "the Hobbit"), but nothing about his part in the battle found its way into the "Tale of Years". He was there, but he was not in command, he displayed no supernatural powers, confronted no enemy commanders. This example shows that Gandalf may well have been say in the Battle of Fornost or in the battle of the Camps etc, without it being mentioned in the chronicles. Gandalf the Grey had been a self-effacing guy, always there somewhere in the background.

But that modus operendi changes when Gandalf turns the White. To start with, he shows his power to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, a thing that G the Grey had never done before. He assumes the command of the defense of Minas Tirith; in an open display of power Gandalf chases the nazgul attacking Faramir, and, finally, he openly challenges the enemy commander, the Lord of the Nazgul, the right hand of Sauron.

To me it seems that most of the limitations originally imposed on Gandalf the Grey by the Valar were lifted by Eru, when Gandalf was sent back. It is never told directly, IIRC, but it seems to be the case.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I think it might also be possible that during the siege at Weathertop, the WK operated by Sauron's "wisdom," driving his men (such as they are) from behind rather than leading the fray, and he simply never got to the front before the confrontation ended, or truly entered into direct combat with Gandalf. Perhaps he considered himself a much better tactician/strategist, and felt the strength of the others would be adequate to the situation while he directed their efforts.

Well, it's a thought.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

I think it might also be possible that during the siege at Weathertop, the WK operated by Sauron's "wisdom," driving his men (such as they are) from behind rather than leading the fray, and he simply never got to the front before the confrontation ended, or truly entered into direct combat with Gandalf. Perhaps he considered himself a much better tactician/strategist, and felt the strength of the others would be adequate to the situation while he directed their efforts.

The WK certainly operated by Sauron's "wisdom," so praised by Denethor, when he had orcs to spare as "cannon-fodder". But in all fairness, we don't have a single occasion when he had done the same to his fellow nazgul. Among the Nine, he was always at the forefront.

It was the WK who "swept away" the Rangers at the ford, it was the WK+2 others who guarded the borders of the Shire and Bree-Land against the possible attack by Elves or Rangers (RC).

At Weathertop there were five nazgul: two remained at the lip of the dell, three advanced on the being who wore the One Ring - which was, by the way, almost a sacrilege for a nazgul - see Letter 246:

Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility.

. When Frodo bared his perilous for the nazgul Barrow-blade, burning red in the Spirit World, two nazgul stopped, and it was only the WK who dared attack Frodo.

At the Ford of Bruinen, the WK was foremost across it, followed by two others, while the rest remained on the safe bank.
At the Pelennor, the WK was at the gates alone, while he could easily bring the rest of the nazgul with him. Same when he attacked Theoden (and that self-assurance had proved his undoing).

So, I don't see the WK remaining in the background while sending the weaker nazgul to fight Gandalf.

Also I don't see the "siege" of Weathertop as plain swordfight. I don't think the enemies even came into direct contact - likely it was a magick battle with lightnings etc., where only the WK was able to match Gandalf's magick (or attempt to). The objective of the nazgul was to drive Gandalf away, preventing him from joining the company with the Ring, not to kill him at all costs. This objective they had fulfilled. I think it was evident for the nazgul that they could only kill Gandalf at the cost of some of their own lives, and they were not ready to pay such price.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It was never a real "trial of strength".

I would agree with this--it seems Gandalf was defending himself and the Witch King was hanging back. For all of the pumping up of the Witch King (too many viewings of the movies), he hangs back or retreats most of the time (Glorfindel drove him off the bridge a few days later).

So I took Gandalf's statement that the trial of strength was yet to come as an accurate description of his and the WK's history. As you mentioned, Gandalf was expressly forbidden from taking a more aggressive role when he was Gandalf the Grey--the situation does seem to change when he comes back as Gandalf the White (which Denethor evidently does not appreciate).