Who was the old man?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Personally, I find the HoME books interesting but not necessarily a good guide to what Tolkien's final thoughts in all matters might be, but there is a passage in "The Treason of Isengard" that has been influential in my thinking on this matter:

In the first draft Gimli asks, 'That old man. You say Saruman is abroad. Was it you or Saruman that we saw last night?' and Gandalf replies: 'If you saw an old man last night, you certainly did not see me. But as we seem to look so much alike that you wished to make an incurable dent in my hat, I must guess that you saw Saruman [or a vision>] or some wraith of his making. [Struck out: I did not know that he lingered here so long.]' Against Gandalf's words my father wrote in the margin: Vision of Gandalf's thought. There is clearly an important clue here to the curious ambiguity surrounding the apparition of the night before, if one knew how to interpret it; but these words are not perfectly clear. They obviously represent a new thought: arising perhaps from Gandalf's suggestion that if it was not Saruman himself that they saw it was a 'vision' or 'wraith' that he had made, the apparition is now to emanate from Gandalf himself. But of whom was it a vision? Was it an embodied 'emanation' of Gandalf, proceeding from Gandalf himself, that they saw? 'I look into his unhappy mind and I see his doubt and fear,' Gandalf has said; it seems more likely perhaps that through his deep concentration on Saruman he had 'projected' an image of Saruman which the three companions could momentarily see. I have found no other evidence to cast light on this most curious element in the tale; but it may be noted that in a time-scheme deriving from the time of the writing of 'Helm's Deep' and 'The Road to Isengard' my father noted of that night: 'Aragorn and his companions spend night on battle-field, and see "old man" (Saruman).'

This does not answer the question for certain, of course, since it is Christopher's speculation concerning his father's intention, but the concept of the person seen at the fire being a "vision" created by thought was JRRT's, not his. In my own thought, if this was indeed a "projected" image and not a real person, and if it is indeed of Saruman rather than Gandalf (which, be it physical or illusory, JRRT seemed most inclined to identify it as Saruman; it shows up repeatedly in notes and drafts), it feels more logical (to my mind at least) for it to originate from Saruman rather than Gandalf. This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

This may be because Saruman demonstrated both keen interest and impatience in leaving Orthanc to gather news, or perhaps because he has a palantir at his disposal. But the notion of the old man being non-physical does have some substantiation, however minimal.

This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

[Inziladun]

CSteefel

This suggests to me an interesting interpretation of the old man, although one that I am hard pressed to provide any evidence for. The thought does arise, however: Why would Saruman bother to personally visit the campsite on the borders of Fangorn if he has a Palantir at his disposal? Now it may not always be straightforward to bend the Palantir to one's will, but given Saruman's intense desire to know what happened to his raiding party, it is actually hard to imagine that he was not busy using the Palantir he possessed to this end.

Now why the use of the Palantir by Saruman, if successful in locating and seeing the three on the borders of Fangorn, would result in a vision, I don't know, and there is no direct support to this. But it seems likely that in one way or another, he was "bending his thought" in that direction, so an evanescent phantom of him might be reasonable, whether aided by the Palantir he held or not...

I wonder if Saruman might not have been afraid to utilize the Palantír of Orthanc at that point. He had been communicating with Sauron for some time, and Sauron had been able to dominate him through it. Saruman had to have been well aware that Sauron could wrest control away from him at any time and demand an account of his doings. Recall what Pippin reported his Questioner saying during his glance at the Stone.

So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?

TT p. 219
Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time.
As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.

So, it wasn't a high-def Palantir then?

But I agree with you, the Palantiri were not astral projectors. What one viewed in the stones could be manipulated -- as Sauron did to Denethor -- but Sauron did not jump out on the Steward in his room in the White Tower.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

CSteefel
I wonder if Saruman might not have been afraid to utilize the Palantír of Orthanc at that point. He had been communicating with Sauron for some time, and Sauron had been able to dominate him through it. Saruman had to have been well aware that Sauron could wrest control away from him at any time and demand an account of his doings. Recall what Pippin reported his Questioner saying during his glance at the Stone.


TT p. 219
Sauron at first thought the surveyor was Saruman, and it appears Saruman had avoided using his Stone for some time.
As to the theory that Saruman had somehow been able to conjure a phantom of himself through the Palantír, it is said, I think, in UT that on their own the Stones could only see. No actual communication was possible with anyone by use of a Stone unless the surveyor could find someone who was also using one at the same time. I don't see how any type of image projection would have been possible.

Yes, good points--it seems you shot down my (short lived and speculative) theories.

I can find nothing about the Palantir working as "projectors", as you mentioned. Obviously they could be used to see, suggesting that Saruman could have spied on the three travelers (in the UT, there is a detailed description of how Denethor might have seen what was happening in Rohan, including "zoom ins"). But any form of communication/projection of an image seems to require a second Palantir. But as you also suggest, there is good evidence that Saruman had not used the Palantir recently, fearing rightfully that as soon as he did so, Sauron would appear. This certainly would have been the last thing he wanted, since it would have presumably given away the fact that he had organized a party to try to obtain the ring for himself.

On the subject of phantoms or visions, there is the case of where Sauron in the 1st Age managed to fool Gorlim, one of Barahir's group in Dorthonion, by presenting a vision or phantom of his wife Eilinel. This would indicate that a Maiar sorcerer is capable of such "magic", so maybe Saruman is as well. However, this doesn't really explain what would be Saruman's motivation for presenting a vision to the three travellers--what purpose is accomplished?

[alatar]

I don't have my book in front of me, but in the Chapter 'The Voice of Saruman,' we learn that Saruman has the ability to just 'pop up.' Reread the text where he is summoned by Gandalf. It goes something like, 'everyone is astonished as Saruman just appears, as no one heard him approach.'

So, by whatever means, if he can show up in a 'poof' kind of way for a company that includes humans, hobbits, horses, a dwarf, an elf, some ents and a white wizard - and be there physically - surely he can do it in reverse, and just poof out.

And if I remember my AD&D correctly, this is some feat, as Rangers are rarely surprised...Peter Jackson's ranger not withstanding.

[The Might]

Ok, that is a legitimate argument, although you must admit there is a difference between disappearing from an open field and appearing at a rail. In one case it's just a step away from not being seen in the other many.

But yeah, the astonishment of those present does remind of the old man's disappearence, it does all in all point towards Saruman as the culprit that night.

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by The Might

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...

Maybe he would if he sensed another Power -- Gandalf -- in the area. I've always wondered why Saruman seemed completely unsurprised by Gandalf's presence on the steps of Orthanc after the battle. Did he have no news that Gandalf had died in Moria? Enquiring minds want to know...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

Ok, that is a legitimate argument, although you must admit there is a difference between disappearing from an open field and appearing at a rail. In one case it's just a step away from not being seen in the other many.

Very much agreed. The probability of appearing at the rail, having been summoned and being expected, is very high...and yet the group I name (in the author's words) are astonished. How much more astonishing then for him to appear - then disappear -where he is not expected nor summoned?

But yeah, the astonishment of those present does remind of the old man's disappearence, it does all in all point towards Saruman as the culprit that night.

Like you, I'm holding out for the DNA evidence.

But I still can't believe he would leave so quickly...

I'm with you, though it does make the writing of the scene easier.

And regarding the palantir allowing one to 'hologram' to another place...I just can't get the image out of my mind of Saruman being in the shower and Sauron popping into the bathroom.