Education in Middle Earth

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Apart from the fact they obviously also had trades in: tailoring; bookbinding; stationery manufacture; forging tools; cutlery manufacture; wine making; umbrella making; and manufacture of personal care items such as mirrors. Amongst other clues pointing to a reasonably modern economy.

I think the value of the Mithril shirt in comparison to the value of The Shire was more of a reflection of the rarity of Mithril and the outrageous worth of a whole shirt made of the stuff rather than a reflection of The Shire's real value.

I did not say other means of trade and industry did not exist (such a thought is embarrassingly narrow-minded and absurd), I meant that the Shire was not economically strong beyond the obvious trades. The trades you mention were all relatively small and unimportant. The Shire was way, way behind the other countries of Middle Earth economically. Mithril may have been rare and valuable, but Gandalf rated it as far more valuable than the Shire and everything in it. I do not think he would have said such a bold statement to dismiss Loth Lorien, Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, Mordor, or even Dale. Bring forth the mail shirt before the Lords of Gondor and Rohan and receive an envious glance of wonder at this antique piece of armoury, but no more.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I did not say other means of trade and industry did not exist, I meant that the Shire was not economically strong beyond the obvious trades. The trades you mention were all relatively small and unimportant. The Shire was way, way behind the other countries of Middle Earth economically. Mithril may have been rare and valuable, but Gandalf rated it as far more valuable than the Shire and everything in it. I do not think he would have said such a bold statement to dismiss Loth Lorien, Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, Mordor, or even Dale.

I think you're mixing economic size with economic prosperity. The Shire was certainly prosperous, though not as large as Gondor.

I'm not sure that you could assign traditional economic value to someplace like Lothlorien. In fact, I don't know of any trade, industry, or currency which the elves of Lothlorien used, and that if you tried to explain trade and the ME equivalent of GDP to Celeborn, he'd be quite uninterested. I would even venture that the only valuable things the elves there had, besides bows (which they didn't trade) and Lembas (ditto), were the articles of yore that they had collected over the years. And those were either kept safe, used personally, or bequeathed as gifts for service.

As for Mordor, the value would theoretically be whatever some buyer would want to pay for it. I'm not so sure what kind of monetary value one could assign a place that was hot, choked by ash, ruled by an evil god, populated by slaves and monsters, had fertile land only around Lake Nurnen, and in which all of the buildings were caked with layers of filth.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I think you're mixing economic size with economic prosperity. The Shire was certainly prosperous, though not as large as Gondor.

I'm not sure that you could assign traditional economic value to someplace like Lothlorien. In fact, I don't know of any trade, industry, or currency which the elves of Lothlorien used, and that if you tried to explain trade and the ME equivalent of GDP to Celeborn, he'd be quite uninterested. I would even venture that the only valuable things the elves there had, besides bows (which they didn't trade) and Lembas (ditto), were the articles of yore that they had collected over the years. And those were either kept safe, used personally, or bequeathed as gifts for service.

As for Mordor, the value would theoretically be whatever some buyer would want to pay for it. I'm not so sure what kind of monetary value one could assign a place that was hot, choked by ash, ruled by an evil god, populated by slaves and monsters, had fertile land only around Lake Nurnen, and in which all of the buildings were caked with layers of filth.

The Shire had potential for economic growth, I certainly did not rule that out. But so long as Hobbits lived in their own little country, unconcerned by the events beyond their borders, economic growth would be very difficult. They would need to develop their trades further afield to prosper. On economic size, the Shire was not a rival to other countries. The other drawback is that Hobbits were not always suited to the trades of Men, e.g. clothing, weaponary, pottery etc due to their size and taste. A cultural hurdle existed here, and one would wonder if Hobbits could adapt to the market needs of men in other countries. I would welcome any economists out there to prove me wrong!

As for Loth Lorien and Mordor, they are simply too incomprehendable to measure their true value and prestige economically.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Shire had potential for economic growth, I certainly did not rule that out. But so long as Hobbits lived in their own little country, unconcerned by the events beyond their borders, economic growth would be very difficult. They would need to develop their trades further afield to prosper.

I think they were already prosperous. Food was plentiful. Cottage industries abounded. And, it seems, their pipe weed was exported both to Bree and Isengard.

As For Loth Lorien and Mordor, they are simply too incomprehendable to measure their true value and prestige economically.

They always gave me the impression of being outside of the traditional economic system. In fact, the early MERP game (from ICE) went into some fair detail describing elven society as a "hierocracy", with gifts and honors as "currency", rather than money. Maybe later I can find those books in the attic.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I think they were already prosperous. Food was plentiful. Cottage industries abounded. And, it seems, their pipe weed was exported both to Bree and Isengard.

Pipeweed and beer trades, and perhaps food, were the chief international trades that the Shire boomed on economically. But again, what of housing, clothing, transport etc? Could Hobbits really adapt to serve the physical and cultural needs of men, be it in Bree or Dale? I would have thought the Dwarf market was more obvious in theory, but the needs of Dwarves for such things were not as apparent, being masters of many a craft themselves. The other factor is, Hobbits mostly worked for themselves and their own needs. I don't think the equivalent of many companies/organisations existed in the Shire.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Pipeweed and beer trades, and perhaps food, were the chief international trades that the Shire boomed on economically. But again, what of housing, clothing, transport etc? Could Hobbits really adapt to serve the physical and cultural needs of men, be it in Bree or Dale? I would have thought the Dwarf market was more obvious in theory, but the needs of Dwarves for such things were not as apparent, being masters of many a craft themselves. The other factor is, Hobbits mostly worked for themselves and their own needs. I don't think the equivalent of many companies/organisations existed in the Shire.

Probably not. But what evidence of companies do we have in the rest of Middle Earth? Remember that the first company to issue stocks in the world was the Dutch East India Company, and that wasn't established until after the Renaissance, in 1602.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Probably not. But what evidence of companies do we have in the rest of Middle Earth? Remember that the first company to issue stocks in the world was the Dutch East India Company, and that wasn't established until after the Renaissance, in 1602.

Michael Delving was a museum that existed in the Shire. In Bree, we come to the Prancing Pony. In Dale we have the Lake Town network. Just a few examples of equivalants to organisations. Not quite up there with Wall Street or Liverpool Street, but companies did exist in Middle Earth.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I did not say other means of trade and industry did not exist (such a thought is embarrassingly narrow-minded and absurd), I meant that the Shire was not economically strong beyond the obvious trades. The trades you mention were all relatively small and unimportant. The Shire was way, way behind the other countries of Middle Earth economically. Mithril may have been rare and valuable, but Gandalf rated it as far more valuable than the Shire and everything in it. I do not think he would have said such a bold statement to dismiss Loth Lorien, Rohan, Gondor, Isengard, Mordor, or even Dale. Bring forth the mail shirt before the Lords of Gondor and Rohan and receive an envious glance of wonder at this antique piece of armoury, but no more.

They'd probably have ripped each other's throats out in order to get their mitts on it. Remember it was lust for this rare Mithril which made the Dwarves do the stupid thing that was delving too deep in Moria and releasing the Balrog. A shirt of Mithril was probably worth as much as mansion constructed entirely of diamonds.

And nations do not have to engage in much international trade to be successful. They can manage pretty well in an isolationist position providing they have the resources, which is something The Shire had in abundance - as shown by Saruman the asset-stripper coming in and selling its resources off.

The Shire was likely much, much more economically successful in the late Third Age than either Gondor or Rohan, the former existing in a state of war and the latter being in virtual chaos due to the king being under the influence of outsiders. Nations cannot run effective economies when under poor leadership or in a state of war.

The other drawback is that Hobbits were not always suited to the trades of Men, e.g. clothing, weaponary, pottery etc due to their size and taste. A cultural hurdle existed here, and one would wonder if Hobbits could adapt to the market needs of men in other countries.

There's no reason why size or taste of the peoples of a nation would affect the things they could manufacture - look at all the stuff China provides the West with, things they do not use, but they still make and export. The only limit is where the skills to make things don't exist and skills can always be acquired.

Mithril, whilst rare and valuable, would not stir the Lords of Rohan or Gondor into a fight over it - that view is totally unjustified in context with their real challenges in Middle Earth. If it were so, they would be sending men to mine for it like the Dwarves. Economies can only grow with increased market growth nationally and internationally. Where do you think the manufacturing material in China and India ends up? Mostly to companies abroad at a lower price, of course, hence their growing market share and booming economies. And Hobbits do not have the mind set or culture of Men. They would have to prove that they can adapt to the tastes, wants and needs of Men and acquire much more knowledge about them before manufacturing items for them. Most Hobbits avoid men like the plague, unconcerned by their affairs. War may help to stir a recession, and affect leadership in Gondor or Rohan, but why do you assume the same cannot affect the Shire? Saruman virtually destroyed the Shire single-handedly!

[Vairë]

May we shift the discussion to Gondor for a while?
Faramir has been briefly mentioned on this thread; his education seems to have been the best that Gondor offered and he himself is a Renaisssance man. He can do all well and gracefully, from reading dead languages in all-but-forgotten archives to fighting with a small band in an Ithilien taken over by Sauron. He is the late Gondor equivalent of Sir Philip Sidney, only he is not killed in battle.
(I could go on about Faramir; I think he is underappreciated.)
What level of education did the guardsmen have? the citizens of Gondor within or without the walls?
Remember also the herblore in the Houses of Healing (and Aragorn's gentle mockery of the Master and the garrulous old woman).
I don't have any more time to write tonight, but I'd be very interested in what others have to say on this.

[Lalwendë]

Mithril, whilst rare and valuable, would not stir the Lords of Rohan or Gondor into a fight over it - that view is totally unjustified in context with their real challenges in Middle Earth. If it were so, they would be sending men to mine for it like the Dwarves.

We are talking about Middle-earth, and we know, because Tolkien told us so, that Mithril was a material so rare and so sought after as to be almost beyond monetary worth - which is why he made a comparison to the whole worth of a 'nation' - not quite a literal comparison but a metaphorical one to emphasise what a truly rare thing it was that Bilbo had. It would be like saying today that you might 'pay a King's ransom' in order to obtain that Wii that nobody can find on the shop shelves.

However we also know just how much people wanted Mithril because of what the Dwarves foolishly did in order to get at some of it. We also know there likely wasn't much if any left that was obtainable.

Economies can only grow with increased market growth nationally and internationally. Where do you think the manufacturing material in China and India ends up? Mostly to companies abroad at a lower price, of course, hence their growing market share and booming economies. And Hobbits do not have the mind set or culture of Men. They would have to prove that they can adapt to the tastes, wants and needs of Men and acquire much more knowledge about them before manufacturing items for them. Most Hobbits avoid men like the plague, unconcerned by their affairs.

The Tokugawa shogunate of Japan was perhaps the most famous isolationist economy. They only traded with the Dutch and were effectively closed to the world at large, and Japan prospered immensely during this time, not just economically but socially and artistically. The Shire probably worked in a similar way - limited trading, little involvement in squabbles, and hence a long period in which their country could grow. This may also tell us why The Shire is a lot different with seemingly more advanced products for sale than other countries - there's not a lot of mention of umbrellas and postal services in Gondor

Hobbits had no need to trade much, they seem to have lived comfortably enough without troubling anyone else. And probably went on that way too in the Fourth Age.

As during those two hundred years of protectionism which Japan enjoyed, The Shire probably quietly improved, including clearly growing enough so that humble Hobbits like Sam had leisure time enough to spend with the old bloke up the Hill, who taught him to read. There's no reason other Hobbits weren't doing the same as this was no subsistence level existence and nor was it feudal.

War may help to stir a recession, and affect leadership in Gondor or Rohan, but why do you assume the same cannot affect the Shire? Saruman virtually destroyed the Shire single-handedly!

It didn't affect The Shire because it was untroubled by conflict for years. Rohan on the other hand was a 'border' country with troublesome Dunlendings on one border, and eventually a King who became corrupted, while Gondor had been under attack for many years. Saruman only showed his face in The Shire towards the end of the War. He only just had time to chop down a few trees and sell off a few goods.

Originally Posted by Vairë

May we shift the discussion to Gondor for a while?
Faramir has been briefly mentioned on this thread; his education seems to have been the best that Gondor offered and he himself is a Renaisssance man. He can do all well and gracefully, from reading dead languages in all-but-forgotten archives to fighting with a small band in an Ithilien taken over by Sauron. He is the late Gondor equivalent of Sir Philip Sidney, only he is not killed in battle.
(I could go on about Faramir; I think he is underappreciated.)
What level of education did the guardsmen have? the citizens of Gondor within or without the walls?
Remember also the herblore in the Houses of Healing (and Aragorn's gentle mockery of the Master and the garrulous old woman).
I don't have any more time to write tonight, but I'd be very interested in what others have to say on this.

Vaire, you raise some interesting points, which I would very much like to see discussed.

[Morthoron]

I am in agreement with Lalwende. There is virtually no outside trade of any significance from or to the Shire at the end of the Third Age. I will add an important caveat to that statement presently.

'Strange as news from Bree' is a favorite phrase uttered by Hobbiton folk. If one reads the encounter of Frodo when he arrives at Bree, the townsfolk greet these Hobbiton Hobbits as if they were a novelty. There are actually Hobbits here from the Shire? Well doesn't that beat all! They speak in terms of a branch of Hobbits long sundered from the outside world, as if the Bree-folk hadn't seen a Shireling for years. If there were any organized trade between Bree and the Shire this would not be such an odd event. Further, Tolkien states in FotR that men are sparse in that region:

In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far West, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire.

What does this tell us? Well for one, a hundred leagues equals three hundred English statute miles, which puts any Mannish settlements besides Bree another three hundred miles south of Hobbiton (which would be below the River Greyflood), north past the Ice Bay of Forochel, and east in Rhudaur. To the West there are no settlements of Men, only Elves (Cirdan's folk have nothing to do with anybody, really) and Dwarves (which we discuss momentarily). So, it is obvious the Shire had no dealings with men, and Bree itself, Tolkien states:

The Bree-folk...did not themselves travel much; and the affairs of the four villages were their main concern. Occasionally the Hobbits of Bree went as far as Buckland, or the Eastfarthing; but though their little land was not much further than a day's riding east of the Brandywine Bridge, the Hobbits of the Shire now seldom visited it. An occasional Bucklander or adventurous Took would come out to the Inn for a night or two, but even that was becoming less and less usual...
It was not yet forgotten that there had been a time when there was much coming and going between the Shire and Bree.

What does this passage refer to? Simply, that any existing trade between Bree and the Shire (the Shire's closest possible trading partner) had ceased long ago. Dwarves are sometimes seen passing through the Shire, but there is no evidence of any established trade between the Dwarrow-folk of Ered Luin and Hobbiton either. Dwarves, like Thorin for example, might mend a pot or two for a Hobbitish matron, but there was no transportation of wains laden with coal from Dwarvish mines, or any large scale trade of foodstuffs from the Shire to Ered Luin (no Hobbit really set foot past the Tower Hills). Everyone was a stranger or an 'outsider' to the Shirefollk; therefore, the Shire can be considered isolationist and without a trade economy.

Now, from an historical perspective, how does this isolationist view of the Shire and its apparent prosperity without apparent trade gibe with early medieval England? Quite nicely, actually. Prior to any systematized policing of roads and wool trade to Flanders, long-range trade was very dicey at best (and it was likely one couldn't get through the primeval forests of England to visit a neighboring village without much trepidation). There was a self-sufficiency that made villages insular, and the 'market' (an actual 'trading town') was usually no more than a few miles away. Therefore, the residents of these insular early medieval enclaves engaged in a wide variety of specializations, including millwrighting, carpentry, leather making, textiles, clothing, metal working, and masonry. Depending on the weather and climate (and it would seem the Shire had good weather without bad droughts or wicked winters for many years -- no 'Little Ice Ages' that would cause famine among the population of Europe just prior to the Black Death), areas of England provided nicely, if not prosperously, for themselves without any external forces intruding on their homegrown market, and there are indications that many peasants were able to produce a substantial surplus of grain and animal products which were sold at the market and allowed themm to purchase other locally manufactured products (iron pots, crockery, woolen-goods, etc.).

Now, regarding my caveat from earlier. England was also open to widescale invasions (the Vikings for instance), and one could look at Sharkey's ruffians -- outside interlopers at first only interested in plunder -- as just such pillagers, taking off with barrrels of Longbottom Leaf and foodstuffs to line Saruman's coffers. Like the Vikings, Sharkey's ruffians then became more systematic, actually subjugating the conquered race of Hobbits and taking up their abodes in the Shire (like England's Danelaw). In any case, the exportation of products from the Shire to the South at that point in time does not equate to trade, rather it was appropriation by a conquering race who began to impose their rule, and their less than subtle modifications of Hobbit culture and architecture.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Now, regarding my caveat from earlier. England was also open to widescale invasions (the Vikings for instance), and one could look at Sharkey's ruffians -- outside interlopers at first only interested in plunder -- as just such pillagers, taking off with barrrels of Longbottom Leaf and foodstuffs to line Saruman's coffers. Like the Vikings, Sharkey's ruffians then became more systematic, actually subjugating the conquered race of Hobbits and taking up their abodes in the Shire (like England's Danelaw). In any case, the exportation of products from the Shire to the South at that point in time does not equate to trade, rather it was appropriation by a conquering race who began to impose their rule, and their less than subtle modifications of Hobbit culture and architecture.

One thing that always amuses me about the likely results of Saruman's 'asset-stripping' is that all those people he sold Longbottom Leaf to would certainly have wanted more of the weed, so The Shire might well have ended up with a highly profitable trade in the end

[The Barrow-Wight]

I have deleted or edited recent posts that were directed at each other rather than the topic.

*** EDIT: I am also infracting/deleting/editing future posts for those who can't abide by this. ***

** SECOND EDIT: If I have to delete one more post for chatting, I'm just going to close this thread.

Stop quoting each other in order to justify an insult! Do we have to call another time-out?!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

They'd probably have ripped each other's throats out in order to get their mitts on it.

Either they would or they would not, there is no probably about it. I do not think the world of Men was in the slightest interested in Mithril whilst the threat of Mordor remained on their door step.