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Old 12-04-2008, 08:43 AM   #1
The Might
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Well it said Saruman was asking himself whether the Ring had been used in the battle or if Theoden had it and had learned of its powers and so returned to Isengard in order to double and treble his efforts against Rohan.

However, it still makes no sense. Of course it is plausible that Saruman being in the area came along said "Boo!" to the horses and left, but I just can't believe it.

Maybe it was a phantom after all:

Quote:
Say, are you not a wizard, some spy from Saruman, or phantoms of his craft? Speak now and be swift!'
'We are no phantoms,' said Aragorn, 'nor do your eyes cheat you.
Quote:
'I wish to see him and learn if he really looks like you.'
'And how will you learn that, Master Dwarf?' said Gandalf. 'Saruman could look like me in your eyes, if it suited his purpose with you. And are you yet wise enough to detect all his counterfeits?
So it seems that actually there were phantoms of Saruman's craft and as Gandalf says Saruman could disguise himself.

Such a difficult topic...
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:04 AM   #2
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If this 'phantom' ability exists, is it ever used before or after this event? Why I have trouble believing it exists is that Gandalf doesn't use it or comment on it as an 'ability,' nor do we see it used when it would be very convenient to do so.

Kinda like Peter Jackson's Saruman's fireball spell that was absent went he was attacked by creatures comprised of wood.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:10 AM   #3
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Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it?

A very very interesting thing I just found out is this:

Quote:
'He wore a ring on his finger. [...] For Saruman the White is, as some of you know, the greatest of my craft, and was the leader in the White Council.... But Saruman long studied the arts of the Enemy, and was thus often able to defeat him; and the lore of rings was one of his chief studies. He knew much of the history [of the rings of power >] of the Nine Rings and the Seven, and somewhat even of the Three and the One; and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making. ~ HOME7
If he had indeed come close to the secret of the making of the Rings of Power, that shows his Ring wasn't that weak at all... so why not believe he could conjure up phantoms unknown to Gandalf.

Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:25 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by The Might View Post
Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it?
Problem with that (you knew I would find one ) is, does any being have this power in Arda or in Middle Earth? A general trend in Tolkien's history is to go from the fantastic to the more normal that resembles much of our world today. Valar and Maiar and Elves retreat and leave humans and a stray hobbit or two. Silmarils give way to ordinary gems. The White Tree in Minas Tirith, though possibly a descendant of Telperion, is still just a tree.

What I am saying is that Saruman may make a new thing or two, but to create a completely new phenomenon never used before or afterwards? Unlikely, at least to me.

Quote:
If he had indeed come close to the secret of the making of the Rings of Power, that shows his Ring wasn't that weak at all... so why not believe he could conjure up phantoms unknown to Gandalf.
Did any other ring give such a power?

Quote:
Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.
That never stops me...
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:18 PM   #5
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My personal suspicion has always been that the "old man" was Saruman, whose mind was so bent on finding out precisely what had happened in that area that he unwittingly projected an image of himself -- his thought, since what he is in uttermost truth is a being of thought, not flesh -- to try to see who was around that campfire, and if any hobbits might be there (especially the Ringbearer). When they addressed him directly, he suddenly realized what he had done, "stepped back" and vanished. My own reasoning is that he is, after all, a Maia, and travel via thought is natural for him in his natural state, but bound to flesh as were all the Istari on this mission, he might be able to do it only in thought -- what might be perceived by others as a "phantom" state. Moreover, he is intensely interested in what happened here, as was indicated by the fact that he actually left the safety of Orthanc to do his own reconnaissance (and was almost caught by the angry Ents). That it was a "phantom" has, in my mind, been supported by Gimli's unease over the lack of footprints at the beginning of "The White Rider" chapter. Legolas dismisses it because of the springy grass, yet he himself says that Aragorn could read even a bent blade -- yet none are mentioned, if I recall correctly.

Under this rationale, it's also possible Gandalf "projected" his own thought as well, also unintentionally; this might be supported by the fact that the "phantom" wore a wide-brimmed hat, as is also how Gandalf is described when he first meets with the three hunters in Fangorn. Either could work, I think; I just lean toward Saruman because Gandalf seemed very certain that they had not seen him. But he could be wrong.

My brain feels rather knotted, now...
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Old 12-04-2008, 02:33 PM   #6
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My concern is that the 'explanation' of the phantom menace violates Occam's Razor, meaning that it makes things even more complicated, when the simpler solution - that Saruman journeyed on foot or physically by some wizardly means - is available and supportable.

And note that Aragorn *could* read a bent blade, but does not make an attempt to do so. If Aragorn states that he cannot find a bent blade, then I would accept the phantom explanation more readily, but Aragorn does not examine any evidence for us to gnaw.

And Gandalf states that Saruman could appear however he wished via the power of his voice (methinks) and so how hard would it be to beguile three sleepy travelers?

And that's enough ands for now.
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Old 12-04-2008, 04:04 PM   #7
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Lots of ands there, yup.

The only problem I have with the "beguiling sleepy travelers" notion is that the "phantom" never speaks. If the power of his voice is being used, then he had to add the "post-hypnotic suggestion" that they never heard him. And if that is the case, then why not just make them think he was never there at all?

A very odd little moment. Maybe it was an illusion sent by the Valar to remind let the hunters know they were soon to encounter someone unexpected. Nah, too many interference problems there, too. *sigh*
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