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#1 | ||
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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Well it said Saruman was asking himself whether the Ring had been used in the battle or if Theoden had it and had learned of its powers and so returned to Isengard in order to double and treble his efforts against Rohan.
However, it still makes no sense. Of course it is plausible that Saruman being in the area came along said "Boo!" to the horses and left, but I just can't believe it. Maybe it was a phantom after all: Quote:
Quote:
Such a difficult topic... ![]()
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The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
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#2 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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If this 'phantom' ability exists, is it ever used before or after this event? Why I have trouble believing it exists is that Gandalf doesn't use it or comment on it as an 'ability,' nor do we see it used when it would be very convenient to do so.
Kinda like Peter Jackson's Saruman's fireball spell that was absent went he was attacked by creatures comprised of wood. ![]()
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#3 | |
Guard of the Citadel
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxon
Posts: 2,205
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Keep in mind alatar, that many of the new abilities that Saruman may have had were unknown to Gandalf.
Saruman was well learned in the lore of the rings and had forget a ring of power of his own, indeed of lesser power, but still - who knows what he could achieve with it? A very very interesting thing I just found out is this: Quote:
Unfortunately no clear examples of him doing so are known or at least I recall none.
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The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
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#4 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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Quote:
![]() What I am saying is that Saruman may make a new thing or two, but to create a completely new phenomenon never used before or afterwards? Unlikely, at least to me. Quote:
Quote:
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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My personal suspicion has always been that the "old man" was Saruman, whose mind was so bent on finding out precisely what had happened in that area that he unwittingly projected an image of himself -- his thought, since what he is in uttermost truth is a being of thought, not flesh -- to try to see who was around that campfire, and if any hobbits might be there (especially the Ringbearer). When they addressed him directly, he suddenly realized what he had done, "stepped back" and vanished. My own reasoning is that he is, after all, a Maia, and travel via thought is natural for him in his natural state, but bound to flesh as were all the Istari on this mission, he might be able to do it only in thought -- what might be perceived by others as a "phantom" state. Moreover, he is intensely interested in what happened here, as was indicated by the fact that he actually left the safety of Orthanc to do his own reconnaissance (and was almost caught by the angry Ents). That it was a "phantom" has, in my mind, been supported by Gimli's unease over the lack of footprints at the beginning of "The White Rider" chapter. Legolas dismisses it because of the springy grass, yet he himself says that Aragorn could read even a bent blade -- yet none are mentioned, if I recall correctly.
Under this rationale, it's also possible Gandalf "projected" his own thought as well, also unintentionally; this might be supported by the fact that the "phantom" wore a wide-brimmed hat, as is also how Gandalf is described when he first meets with the three hunters in Fangorn. Either could work, I think; I just lean toward Saruman because Gandalf seemed very certain that they had not seen him. But he could be wrong. My brain feels rather knotted, now... ![]()
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#6 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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My concern is that the 'explanation' of the phantom menace violates Occam's Razor, meaning that it makes things even more complicated, when the simpler solution - that Saruman journeyed on foot or physically by some wizardly means - is available and supportable.
And note that Aragorn *could* read a bent blade, but does not make an attempt to do so. If Aragorn states that he cannot find a bent blade, then I would accept the phantom explanation more readily, but Aragorn does not examine any evidence for us to gnaw. And Gandalf states that Saruman could appear however he wished via the power of his voice (methinks) and so how hard would it be to beguile three sleepy travelers? And that's enough ands for now.
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
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Lots of ands there, yup.
![]() The only problem I have with the "beguiling sleepy travelers" notion is that the "phantom" never speaks. If the power of his voice is being used, then he had to add the "post-hypnotic suggestion" that they never heard him. And if that is the case, then why not just make them think he was never there at all? A very odd little moment. Maybe it was an illusion sent by the Valar to remind let the hunters know they were soon to encounter someone unexpected. Nah, too many interference problems there, too. *sigh*
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
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