Who was the old man?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

What I now actually find most plausible of all is Radagast being there. The only problem is - what would Radagast be doing there? If he had indeed come to Fangorn, why didn't either Gandalf nor Treebeard mention him? At least Treebeard should probably know.

The only problem I have is - after leaving Gandalf why would Radagast make his way towards Isengard instead of chilling in the forest with birds and beasts? It was not really his character to do that.

I don't think that it could be Radagast for the following reasons:

• The Brown One rarely, if ever, traveled.

• Of all the Istari, only Gandalf holds true. If Radagast were to take an active role in the War of the Ring, then he too wouldn't be a failure.

• If Radagast were to have entered Fangorn, even briefly, Treebeard would have known of it. Gandalf may have too. And yet, when Gandalf is later questioned, he fails to mention Radagast? Not likely...

• Radagast would not have driven off the horses. They would have liked seeing him almost as much as Shadowfax as he could speak with them.

• Why would he make such a journey/appearance and yet do nothing?!?

Originally Posted by Alfirin

It is also possible that, should a Orc scout see three people on foot, he may decide they aren't worth persuing, whereas three riders maigh be assumed to be from Rohan and therefore warranting of an immediate pursuit and attack. as for why Radagast would be in the area in the first place, maybe he is going to talk to the Ents and try to convince them to lend thier help (If there is any "human" in ME who the Ents are likey to really like and trust implicitly, Radagast the Brown is likey to be it).

You may have it exactly backwards. Orcs would have attacked three humanoids as, as Peter Jackson's orcs would have said, "Fellas, meat's back on the menu!" They would have been less inclined to attack the Rohirrim, especially after being routed - and if they weren't part of the ones heading for Orthanc, surely they would have known enough about the horse boys to fear them. Anyway...

So I'm still saying it was Saruman. He had no woodcraft, and knew that his Uruks were bringing hobbits to him, and so he appears, albeit clumsily, in Fangorn's edge. Wasn't this the whole reason a little later he unleashes Isengard on Theoden, thinking that one of those horse boys may have carried a ring back to Edoras?

And doesn't someone mention something like, 'for once, Saruman came too late?'

[The Might]

But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.

Is simply makes no sense at all for Saruman himself to see them and then just go away.

Maybe he looked into the palantir to determine their position (keep in mind palantiri were useful as long as there was enough light where the observation took place - the campfire) and then conjured up some evil ghost of himself and sent it their to annoy them.

It could be that just like Sauron, Saruman was so certain of getting the Ring soon that he saw no need to leave Orthanc at all.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.

Is simply makes no sense at all for Saruman himself to see them and then just go away.

You may be confused regarding Saruman's knowledge regarding the Three Hunters. He learns all about them via Grima, who learns who these three are when they reach Theoden's door. When Saruman sees the three in the forest, he sees not his Uruks (for which he hoped) nor any hobbits (for which he salivated), just three odd travelers perhaps. Now, having recently commanded his orcs to cut trees from Fangorn, he knows that he's behind enemy lines and so cannot spend too much time on what appears a worthless interrogation. And surely these three played no part in the slaughter and burning of his forces - three against three hundred?

Didn't one of the hobbits remark that Saruman had no real courage (though they were somewhat mistaken)?

If it's not Saruman, then what be the case for it to be anyone else?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

But alatar, the big problem here is that Saruman does nothing at all to fight against the three. He would have recognized them and I have no doubt he knew he could take them down. He was no coward, he faced Gandalf the Grey and so the Three Hunters would quickly be done with. Why should he not have done it? It would end any possibility for Gondor to have a new king and it would weaken Rohan as they would not receive any help from the three.

Bear in mind, though, that he had no idea who Aragorn was... so besides a Man, an Elf and a Dwarf, there was nothing more to bring his attention about the group.

(EDIT: I see alatar has crossposted with me on the subject)

[Kitanna]

I see other have hit on the fact Saruman wouldn't have needed or known to bother with the three hunters at this point, so I'll forget what I was going to say which has been stated better by others.

However, maybe the old man was a vision of Gandalf sent by someone else. Who? I can't say. But it reads as a sort of foreshadowing that Gandalf is about to return and there is this hatted old man who may have been a vision to the hunters of what was to come. The problem with this theory is who would have had the power to show the three hunters that Gandalf was abroad in the land.

[The Might]

Oh, I was not aware of that... bah, and I thought I know stuff... FAIL

No, but actually now Kitanna is making a great argument.

Here is my idea after reading her post - Galadriel, who did indeed know of Gandalf's return or the wizard himself managed to implant this thought into the minds of the Three Hunters hoping for them to realise that Gandalf had returned. The horses leaving was only a coincidence caused by Shadowfax' arrival.

To support the idea, I'll be pasting in some quotes from the essay Ósanwe-kenta by Pengolodh, later found by Tolkien and edited in `98 by Hostetter.

The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hröa, for their fëa is united to their hröa and its normal procedure is through the hröa, which is in itself part of Eä, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hröa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.
Affinity may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hröa to hröa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fëar, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fëa to fëa.
Urgency is imparted by great need of the "sender" (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the "receiver" the thought is the clearer received. Authority may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others.

Some would be true in the case of Gandalf.
Affinity- he was their friend, so was she
Urgency - well Gandalf wasn't under any adrenalin rush so this isn't that plausible, although it was important for them to know of his return, also not working for Galadriel that well
Authority - he was after all a "leader" for them and they looked up to him for guidance and so was Galadriel in a way

But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties (Note 1). The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties. If we call one mind G (for guest or comer) and the other H (for host or receiver), then G must have full intention to inspect H or to inform it. But knowledge may be gained or imparted by G, even when H is not seeking or intending[i] to impart or to learn: the act of G will be effective, if H is simply "open" (láta; látie "openness"). This distinction, he says, is of the greatest importance.
[i] Tolkien replaced "willing" with "intending" in the act of typing.

So perhaps with the Three Hunters being open to new news of Gandalf and considering his/her superior power it makes sense he may have given them this vision.

Also consider the precedents:

though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. ~ UT, The Istari

and also the vision that Frodo had, also surely at Gandalf's desire.

So yeah, kudos Kitanna, I believe your post was most enlightening!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

However, maybe the old man was a vision of Gandalf sent by someone else. Who? I can't say. But it reads as a sort of foreshadowing that Gandalf is about to return and there is this hatted old man who may have been a vision to the hunters of what was to come. The problem with this theory is who would have had the power to show the three hunters that Gandalf was abroad in the land.

Originally Posted by The Might

No, but actually now Kitanna is making a great argument.

Here is my idea after reading her post - Galadriel, who did indeed know of Gandalf's return or the wizard himself managed to implant this thought into the minds of the Three Hunters hoping for them to realise that Gandalf had returned. The horses leaving was only a coincidence caused by Shadowfax' arrival.

While an interesting idea, no, I don't actually find it much plausible. The disappearance of the horses WAS actually a deed of the old man, whoever it was, or it was at least connected to his presence. The horses met Shadowfax only a bit LATER (and likely, he saved them from fleeing wildly into the plains). And in either case, what link would there be between Shadowfax over there and the projection of Gandalf by the fire? Actually, the presence of Shadowfax (well, "presence" - he was pretty far away) may have been a reason for the old man (as Saruman) to go away before some "White Rider" comes...

I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".

[The Might]

I doubt that Legate...
I actually believe Gandalf wanted Shadowfax to come and collect the horses needed for the journey.
Take a loot at these quotes from LotR:

'It is a long way from Rivendell, my friend,' he said; 'but you are wise and swift and come at need. Far let us ride now together, and part not in this world again!'

'Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?'
'Yes, I knew,' said the wizard. 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land. Swiftly may he bear me back again!'

So it seems that Gandalf did use his mind powers, as seen in Ósanwe-kenta to ask Shadowfax to ride to the edge of Fangorn.
And it seems that even Aragorn was uncertain whether the horses "fled at first in fear". I actually believe that whilst the three were distracted with this vision Shadowfax came by and took the horses with him. I mean, who wouldn't leave if your king rode around?!


Also, take a look here:

Remember the words of Éomer: he walks about like an old man hooded and cloaked. Those were the words. He has gone off with our horses, or scared them away, and here we are. There is more trouble coming to us, mark my words!' 'I mark them,' said Aragorn. 'But I marked also that this old man had a hat not a hood. Still I do not doubt that you guess right, and that we are in peril here, by night or day.

'I see, I see now!' hissed Gimli. 'Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.'

They could not see his face: he was hooded, and above the hood he wore a wide-brimmed hat, so that all his features were over-shadowed, except for the end of his nose and his grey beard.

It seems that Gandalf looked just like the men seen the night before, although he was now hooded - something that may have not been noticed by Aragorn.

So yeah, I hope all that makes sense, enough argumentating for today and all in all I stick to the idea that it was a vision sent by Galadriel.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The disappearance of the horses WAS actually a deed of the old man, whoever it was, or it was at least connected to his presence. The horses met Shadowfax only a bit LATER (and likely, he saved them from fleeing wildly into the plains). And in either case, what link would there be between Shadowfax over there and the projection of Gandalf by the fire? Actually, the presence of Shadowfax (well, "presence" - he was pretty far away) may have been a reason for the old man (as Saruman) to go away before some "White Rider" comes...

I would still trust Gandalf's wisdom and think that the old man was Saruman, whether in person or just a "projection".

I like this idea. The horses may well have been spooked by the old man, and then kept from running off completely by the appearance of Shadowfax.

Of course the other possibility is that, if the old man is in fact a phantom, that he did not appear to the horses at all and their only encounter was with Shadowfax.

In any case, it makes no real sense for either Gandalf or Radagast to run off when invited by Aragorn to join the party. Only Saruman makes sense here, and he has the best motivation to be there (in physical or phantom form), since he is trying to find out what happened to his Orc party...

[alatar]

It's over...though oddly expressed.

Originally Posted by Gandalf the White in Fangorn

He <Saruman> was so eager to lay his hands on his prey that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late, for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long. I look into his mind and I see his doubt. He has no woodcraft. He believes that the horsemen slew and burned all upon the field of battle; but he does not know whether the Orcs were bringing any prisoners or not.

And later:

'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman.'

What's odd is the two statements seem to be at odds, as the first seems definitive while the second a guess.