Humility & Heroes

[Rumil]

Hi Davem and Might,

Interesting stuff, I doubt the heroes of the sagas hid their light 'neath a bushel. A couple of thoughts...

Boromir versus Faramir- Boromir shades towards pride in inisiting on replacing Faramir on the journey to Rivendell, but manages to subordinate himself to Aragorn (at least while away from Gondor). I think this may have helped the ring gain control, utilising the bubbling pool of pride and perhaps jealously that maybe Boromir was trying to suppress.

Eomer you might describe as less humble in attitude than Faramir, but in away he is 'allowed' as he comes from a less developed culture, perhaps!

Just about 99% of First Age elves are closely descibed by 'Pride before a fall' indeed , in fact nearly all of Beleriand.

Remember Tolkien was a war veteran, few seem to want to talk much about their experiences, no matter how 'heroic' they may have been. According to one author the only way to get Brit WW2 heroes to talk about their experience was to ask them about their oppos, then ask the oppo about the first chap. I have a feeling that the majority of veterans thought that anyone 'going-on' about their service was slightly suspicious in some way?

[Lalwendë]

Tolkien's war experience is another interesting angle on this.

Interestingly, Tolkien and the other Inklings were proud of their war service, in the sense that they had 'done their duty', much as ex-servicemen (and women) are today, in that they have pride in having served but not pride in the 'killing' aspect of war. If I've expressed that correctly...? It's a hard thing to explain! I've also heard about how veterans find it difficult to talk about what they went through but to comrades they can talk for hours...

Boromir's an interesting case. I love reading about him on the journey down the Anduin - it's a perfect study of a man trying to keep his feelings in check as he tries to submit to Aragorn's leadership. He's a man who is full of pride of course and ends up deeply humble.

[davem]

Hobbits are clearly fairytale 'heroes' - hence their humility - but the world they stray into is the world of epic (both pagan - Illiad/Odyssey, Beowulf - & medieval Christian - Morte d'Arthur, Orlando Furioso, even the Fairie Queene). Frodo is, via his journey & his suffering, raised up to that level, but the other Hobbits retain their Fairy story nature. Hence, they can go home but he cannot.

Gandalf, Aragorn & Faramir are not humble in the same way, or to the same extent, as the Hobbits - because it is not 'natural' to them: their humility is not innate - they must consciously humble themselves, fight against the 'sin' of pride. This is the reason that they are in more danger from the Ring - the Hobbits have a natural 'immunity' (obviously not complete immunity, but greater than that of other races). The Ring is not of their world, of the world of folk & fairy story. It is of the high, epic world - again the reason Tom is immune to its power, because he too is of the world of folk & fairy tale. Only when Frodo has 'grown' sufficiently to 'migrate' to the higher, mythic world can he fall to the power of the Ring. At the Cracks of Doom Frodo has lost that innate Hobbit, folksy, humility & like Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel et al must choose to humble himself - which he fails to do. The other Hobbits don't commit the ultimate Sin as Frodo does, but then they never grow enough to be able to.

[Nogrod]

First this humility reminds me of Christianity. Like the Christ, one should be humble (even if I'm not sure He was that humble all the time...). I have no idea how it is in King James or any other English translation but freely translated the Book says "The ones who uplift themselves will be downgraded - and the ones who downgrade themselves will be uplifted" (in Finnish translation they use the same words on both sides of the metaphor).

Secondly it might as well be linked to Tolkien's love of Kalevala and the Finnish folklore - and why not British modesty which is not too much unlike Finnish modesty. But talking about national myths, the Finns really think they are the most modest people in the world. (And how modest is that?)
*should we have a British-Finnish contest on which one is more modest?*

Surely Egill or Gunnar are not the most modest characters you can find, and neither is Wieland / Woland / Wayland / Völundur the smith or any of those ancient northern legends. Even Thor and Odin seem to be quite self-asserting - like King Arthur or Lancelot; or Roland or Siegfried to that matter. They are clearly pagan heroes even if the writers of their stories have instilled Christian features into their stories. Anyway, they have pride in what they do.

But the Finnish folklore is just filled with these ideas of being low key and not making a number of oneself (with the exception of Kullervo eg. Turín, and possibly Ilmarinen eg. the smith eg. the Silmaril-maker) even before the christendom arrived here.

So maybe Tolkien was looking at that one genuine principle that would bring together the Christ-myth (Jewish) with the ancient stories (Finnish) that fit his view of the genuine idea of a good (British) common folk? And the utmost bravery of those we in Finland call the "silent of the earth"...

[The Might]

Awesome, post davem, kudos!

A really interesting idea with this transition between the two worlds and it explains much of what we see happening in LotR.
And yes, of course since Tolkien based so much on folklore it makes perfect sense to give his heroes the same qualities as those of fairytale ones.

I find it interesting actually that Hobbits were so much more humble due to their background and perhaps also due to their closeness to nature and living things. After all, they had in their past, especially during the long journey from the east, endured many hardships as well.

My idea is that either they stayed as humble the whole time, which makes them so special in M-e.

Men on the other hand all had to endure much, the perpetual return of evil in the east, wars, plagues, etc. and this decreased their trust in others and also their humility. They had to stand up more often for themselves, received no help from the outside, and so felt they are the ones that have to get the credit.

[Andsigil]

Lalwendë,

I suppose I don't see the humility of Aragorn as easily as you do. He always seemed proud and rather stately to me, especially when he threatened mayhem to the Rohirrim if they so much as looked at Anduril sideways.

Perhaps it's a relative thing and his humility is great for one of royal blood (as opposed to more common folk).

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Lalwendë,

I suppose I don't see the humility of Aragorn as easily as you do. He always seemed proud and rather stately to me, especially when he threatened mayhem to the Rohirrim if they so much as looked at Anduril sideways.

Perhaps it's a relative thing and his humility is great for one of royal blood (as opposed to more common folk).

Really? That's interesting as everyone I speak to has a different perception of Aragorn, some find him pious, others find him humble. I think he does have a tendency to be proud, being who he is, but we can see it shaken out of him somewhat when Gandalf tells him it is disrespectful to take weapons into Meduseld and eventually he becomes a marvellous leader who does not expect loyalty from the Men of Gondor but who earns it and will only accept his Kingship by consensus.

Something else I was thinking about following on from what davem says was whether different types of people are humble in different ways. The Hobbits of course are a humble people in comparison to the greater Men and Elves of Middle-earth, but what about people like Faramir, Galadriel, Aragorn etc? They are not humble people by nature, do they have to learn humility or is it a character trait? Certainly by the end of the books we see our 'heroes' brought humble in attitude (and the end result is really what I am interested in), but are they all like that to begin with and what turns them?

Do we meet many 'humble' people in the Lord of the Rings aside from the Hobbits? Not many....