Nazgûl clothes: visible and invisible

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have to disagree: nazgul are mortal equivalent of the Lingerers, not the Houseless Elves. The Houseless have no hroar at all: they are dead, their bodies had died, but their fëar refused to go to Mandos where they belong. The Nazgul and the Lingerers do have bodies invisible by mortals, but solid and not dead. They were never summoned to Mandos - just because they haven't died.

"Invisible" is not the same as "insubstantial". Imagine one walks by night, hits an invisible tree and finds it painfully substantial. Ordinary Men simply don't see at night, neither do they see in the World of Shadow - but that doesn't prevent them from hitting something invisible for them and getting hurt.

Well indeed, they could be either. However the fact that Elves who resist the call to go to Valinor and instead linger in Middle-earth and simply 'fade' are not all evil is very different to the nature of the Ringwraiths, who are evil. And for an Elf to take the choice to wander about as a houseless fea is as bad as for a mortal to exist as a Wraith - wholly against his nature.

A Ringwraith has not resisted any 'call' on his fea, but has succumbed to the temptation offered by living a seemingly endless life, something forbidden to him. He has undergone what must have been a long and drawn out process in which his hroa has withered and to all intents and purposes is not a lot different to the houseless fea of an Elf, though we could say it's a lot worse as it is at least possible for an Elf to exist without a hroa (though it leaves him vulnerable to evil), whereas Men are not created that way.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

A most unusual topic. I wonder, though: is the appearance of a Nazgul "under the robes" any more real than Sauron's appearance as a flaming red eye? What Frodo "sees" when he puts on the Ring may be no more their true appearance than when he sees the Eye through the auspices of the Ring. It may be a representation of what they once were (or in Sauron's case, a frightening image he wishes to project into the minds of others to terrify them), but not real in a physical sense. When Merry stabs the Witch King, he breaks the spell that "knit his unseen sinews to his will," allowing Eowyn to finish him off, so it seems plain to me that there is some form of "magic" at work in his continued embodiment -- a living death, of sorts, and rather more akin to the faded Elves, as others have noted.

Must ponder this some more (and maybe go rooting through the letters and such...)

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Well indeed, they could be either. However the fact that Elves who resist the call to go to Valinor and instead linger in Middle-earth and simply 'fade' are not all evil is very different to the nature of the Ringwraiths, who are evil. And for an Elf to take the choice to wander about as a houseless fea is as bad as for a mortal to exist as a Wraith - wholly against his nature.

A Ringwraith has not resisted any 'call' on his fea, but has succumbed to the temptation offered by living a seemingly endless life, something forbidden to him. He has undergone what must have been a long and drawn out process in which his hroa has withered and to all intents and purposes is not a lot different to the houseless fea of an Elf, though we could say it's a lot worse as it is at least possible for an Elf to exist without a hroa (though it leaves him vulnerable to evil), whereas Men are not created that way.

Yes, sure you are right here. In my previous post I was not speaking of the moral side of it: good vs. evil, only about the physics of it: whether there was a material hroa to go with the fea. Yes, indeed, though physically the Nazgul resemble the Lingerers, morally they are more evil than the Houseless.

[Boromir88]

Perhaps another interesting question is why they are robed in the colours of Gandalf. After all, much is made of Gandalf's colours. What is the relationship of the wraith-world and that of the maiar? Was Tolkien running out of colours or is there some kinship of the spirit world?~Bethberry

This is just some rambling speculation here Bb, so don't know what you want to make of it. Anyway, I forget what topic I was listening to on the radio, but I heard "he chose the white part of grey." I immediately thought about Gandalf and also the colour symbolism of 'grey.'

Grey is kind of this limbo color, you're neither white nor black, but aspects of both. You're in this middle state, some sort of uncertainty.

Gandalf comes to Middle-earth robed in Grey. I think that's important, because remember when he was chosen he resisted, he didn't want to go to Middle-earth and direct the fight against Sauron:

"But Olorin declared he was too weak for such a task and he feared Sauron."~Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Gandalf enters Middle-earth in this grey/limbo position, and he is confronted by the Ring right in the 2nd chapter. Does he continue to lead the resistance against Sauron, or does he take the ring when asked and become Sauron? The climax of Gandalf's transition from Grey to White is his sacrifice on the bridge in Moria. When he returns we see him take really a much more active role in spear-heading the fight against Sauron. He is Saruman as he should have been. What's interesting about Saruman is his transition from White to 'Many Colors', but I think that's for a different discussion.

Anyway, what I just wanted to point out is the colour symbolism behind grey. Perhaps their 'grey clothes' represents the Ringwraiths really being in this limbo-stage, they are neither living nor dead, the live in a 'Shadow World' as well as having a very real and physical presense in Middle-earth.