a barrow wight

[alatar]

Excellent post, Ancalagon's Fire. What I would like to know is: are the wights, like the old Police song sings, "spirits in the material world," meaning, how were they able to interact with the Hobbits in the physical world?

From what I can gather, Merry, Pippin and Sam were taken first by the wight(s). Frodo, after a long uphill slog, finds a wight/barrow and gets touched by the wight and remembers no more. So, first, how do the three hobbits get up into the barrow? How are their clothes removed? (and an aside, I believe that a wight exists next to my clothes dryer, as I cannot explain missing socks otherwise).

Seems like a big job for a crawling hand...

And after dragging the hobbits into the barrow, undressing them and adorning them with various bric-a-brac, the crawling arm makes to execute them, seemingly. Why couldn't the same mechanism that interacted with the Hobbits hold the sword that would have slain them?

[Alfirin]

on the last point (why the hand was needed to do the actual slaying), I've laways thoght that the reason could be because this isn't simply a defensive killing, it is a ritual sacrafice. since it is it may be that the ritual calls for a specifically ordained "person" to be the one who actually strikes the blow, while the duty of adorning the sacrafices is the job of others.

[alatar]

That would make some sense, except that some 'thing' had to transport the hobbits into the Barrow.

So are wights spirits in the material world? I guess so, as even the Nazgul can wear clothing. Odd that Frodo's clothing, when he wears the Ring, disappears with him.

So maybe spirits are just invisible, yet material.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

That would make some sense, except that some 'thing' had to transport the hobbits into the Barrow.

So are wights spirits in the material world? I guess so, as even the Nazgul can wear clothing. Odd that Frodo's clothing, when he wears the Ring, disappears with him.

So maybe spirits are just invisible, yet material.

I always considered the wights to be spirits (sent by the WiKi) that reanimated the corpses (or limbs of corpses, as it were) in the Barrows. The arm could have been one of those once attached to the long-dead prince of Cardolan, or his stuttering cousin, Stanley. So you see, the limbs/skeletal remains in the Barrows were once Dunedain (or even remains of previous cultures), but the spirits inhabiting them were wightish; therefore, there is no reason a healthy skeleton or two could not drag a few Hobbits into the Barrow. After all, there was always a wight laying about willing to lend a hand...or leg.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by alatar

I guess so, as even the Nazgul can wear clothing. Odd that Frodo's clothing, when he wears the Ring, disappears with him.

The nazgul do have material bodies. They are faded into invisibility, visible only in the Shadow World, but material nonetheless.

Frodo's clothing disappears with him because he wears the Ring. Nazgul clothing remains visible because the nazgul do not wear their Rings - Sauron keeps the Nine himself. When the nazgul desire to go around invisible, they have to remove the clothing (as in UT-Hunt for the Ring), because Sauron doesn't deign to lent them their Rings.

I fully agree with Morthoron about the wights. Most likely they were Houseless Elves inhabiting material corpses / bones - not their own, but those of the long-dead Dunedain.

I wonder what the Wights wanted to do with the three hobbits, what was all this dark rite about - maybe they wanted to get some fresh corpses to inhabit?

And why didn't the Wights treat Frodo the same way they treated the rest of the hobbits? Was it because he was caught the last, or was it because the Wights felt he had the Ring and were going to deliver him to the Witch-King?

[Inziladun]

Gordis

Frodo's clothing disappears with him because he wears the Ring. Nazgul clothing remains visible because the nazgul do not wear their Rings - Sauron keeps the Nine himself. When the nazgul desire to go around invisible, they have to remove the clothing (as in UT-Hunt for the Ring), because Sauron doesn't deign to lent them their Rings.

Not to turn this into a Nazgûl discussion, but surely they did not go around naked most of the time (even though invisible)! I'd always thought them to be clad in whatever they had been wearing when they had 'faded' when invisible to eyes (or as you said, like Frodo when he puts on the Ring). They were then obligated to put on additional garments in order to be seen by all but Sauron. Frodo, when wearing the Ring, was able to see their original clothes.

(Frodo) was able to see beneath their black wrappings. .......Under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel.

FOTR p221. (paperback)
None of that was visible to any of the others present on Weathertop. Just the black stuff.

I fully agree with Morthoron about the wights. Most likely they were Houseless Elves inhabiting material corpses / bones - not their own, but those of the long-dead Dunedain.

Elves? It doesn't seem they were allowed to be ghosts hanging about in the ether. The spirits of all Elves went to the Halls of Mandos after the destruction of their physical bodies. And something bothers me about that arm. If it was an appendage of a long dead Dúnadan, why was it not skeletal? No- it must have been part of the wight. Look at what happened when Frodo attacked it.

With what strength he had he hewed at the crawling arm near the wrist, and the hand broke off; but at the same time the sword splintered up to the hilt. There was a shriek and the light vanished. In the dark there was a snarling noise.

FOTR p161 (paperback)

The sword broke just as it would have when striking a Nazgûl (though without the wounding of the sword-arm). The 'shriek' seems to indicate pain, the 'snarling noise', animalistic anger. Would any of that had happened if the arm had been simply a piece of corpse animated by another force?

And why didn't the Wights treat Frodo the same way they treated the rest of the hobbits? Was it because he was caught the last, or was it because the Wights felt he had the Ring and were going to deliver him to the Witch-King?

My only thought on that is that the ring must have been a factor, though I don't know that the wights actually would have even been aware of its existence. They were, after all, sent there by the Witch-king around 1670 of the Third Age- long after the Ring was taken from Sauron and believed lost forever. Perhaps the Wight sensed the Ring and was confused and alarmed, not understanding what it was, yet still desiring to kill Frodo along with the rest. Maybe the Ring also gave Frodo some measure of ability to resist the Wight's spell.
It's really all conjecture, I think, because there just isn't a lot of textual evidence to go on to make a point, one way or another.

[Gordis]

Inziladun, I will open a new thread to discuss nazgul clothing.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Elves? It doesn't seem they were allowed to be ghosts hanging about in the ether. The spirits of all Elves went to the Halls of Mandos after the destruction of their physical bodies.

They were supposed to go there, they were summoned, but they could refuse the summons and stay as disembodied ghosts in ME. It was against the Design of Eru, so such Elves became easy prey to Morgoth and his followers.

Here is what is said about them in Morgoth’s Ring (HoME 10), The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Laws and Customs among the Eldar:

It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own’s will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos. The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies: there is peril also of destruction. For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fëa from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its rightful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.

I guess the Witch-King, using necromantic, Morgul magic, helped the Houseless to become housed - not in the living bodies, but in the corpses of the Dunedain

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And something bothers me about that arm. If it was an appendage of a long dead Dúnadan, why was it not skeletal?

The "Last prince of Cardolan" whose barrow it was (see App. A), died in 1409. The Wights entered the Barrow soon after the Plague, in 1636. So the corpses had only about 230 years to rot naturally. If the conditions were good, the air dry etc., in such a short time the bodies could have been quite nicely preserved, especially if embalmed properly. And I guess Dunedain (with their obsession with Death and tombs) did embalm their dead, much like Egyptians.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

No- it must have been part of the wight. Look at what happened when Frodo attacked it. The sword broke just as it would have when striking a Nazgûl (though without the wounding of the sword-arm). The 'shriek' seems to indicate pain, the 'snarling noise', animalistic anger. Would any of that had happened if the arm had been simply a piece of corpse animated by another force?

Well if a spirit inhabits a body, it should feel pain when its body is damaged. After all, it is almost alive, even if it looks like a corpse or a skeleton.
As for the sword breaking, it is quite similar to nazgul case, in fact ("All swords perish that pierce that dreadful King"). Perhaps any blade that strikes some denizen of the Shadow world breaks as a rule.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

My only thought on that is that the ring must have been a factor, though I don't know that the wights actually would have even been aware of its existence. They were, after all, sent there by the Witch-king around 1670 of the Third Age- long after the Ring was taken from Sauron and believed lost forever. Perhaps the Wight sensed the Ring and was confused and alarmed, not understanding what it was, yet still desiring to kill Frodo along with the rest. Maybe the Ring also gave Frodo some measure of ability to resist the Wight's spell.
It's really all conjecture, I think, because there just isn't a lot of textual evidence to go on to make a point, one way or another.

There is some textual evidence. Firstly, we know that the Witch-King had visited the Barrow Wights right before Frodo et al. were trapped in the Barrow.

The Black Captain […] himself visited the Barrow-downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.-UT, "Hunt for the Ring"

I believe the Witch-King reminded the Wights that he was their master and explained to them the current goals. They had to know he wanted the One Ring. Strange it is that the Wight hadn't summoned the Witch-King straight away. Instead it started this strange dark ritual involving the three hobbits, but not Frodo. I can't understand the Wight's behaviour…

[Inziladun]

Gordis

They were supposed to go there, they were summoned, but they could refuse the summons and stay as disembodied ghosts in ME. It was against the Design of Eru, so such Elves became easy prey to Morgoth and his followers.

I don't have the HoME books, nor have I read them, so I was drawing from the 'core' works - LOTR, UT, and The Silmarillion. I knew of no instance of an Elvish spirit remaining bodiless outside Mandos. Even those who died in Valinor were there. All the HoME information is very interesting, and I must make some effort to acquire those volumes.

The "Last prince of Cardolan" whose barrow it was (see App. A), died in 1409. The Wights entered the Barrow soon after the Plague, in 1636. So the corpses had only about 230 years to rot naturally. If the conditions were good, the air dry etc., in such a short time the bodies could have been quite nicely preserved, especially if embalmed properly. And I guess Dunedain (with their obsession with Death and tombs) did embalm their dead, much like Egyptians

The Barrow Downs didn't seem especially dry- green grass was everywhere, fog was in abundance, and while the hobbits were in Tom Bombadil's house they noted:

The upper wind settled in the West and deeper and wetter clouds rolled up to spill their laden rain on the bare heads of the Downs.

FOTR p146 (paperback)

It is also interesting to observe that in the Moria Chamber of Mazarbul, presumably a far drier environment, we have this description:

By both the doors they could now see that many bones were lying, and among them were broken swords and axe-heads, and cloven shields and helms.

FOTR p. 360 (paperback)

Those bodies, apparently the result of fighting between Balin's Dwarves and Orcs, had been there only thirty years or thereabouts, and already had decayed to bones.
Embalming could explain this, as the Númenoreans certainly practised the art, but I would question whether they did it as a matter of custom on all their people, or just their Kings (and later, Stewards).

There is some textual evidence. Firstly, we know that the Witch-King had visited the Barrow Wights right before Frodo et al. were trapped in the Barrow.

Quote:
The Black Captain […] himself visited the Barrow-downs. In notes on the movements of the Black Riders at that time it is said that the Black Captain stayed there for some days, and the Barrow-wights were roused, and all things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, were on the watch with malice in the Old Forest and on the Barrow-downs.-UT, "Hunt for the Ring"

I believe the Witch-King reminded the Wights that he was their master and explained to them the current goals. They had to know he wanted the One Ring. Strange it is that the Wight hadn't summoned the Witch-King straight away. Instead it started this strange dark ritual involving the three hobbits, but not Frodo. I can't understand the Wight's behaviour…

Indeed. If the Wight knew of the existence of the Ring, why wasn't it taken from Frodo immediately? That is why I simply cannot believe that the Wights did know. The Witch-king stayed there for a while, and his presence acted as a catalyst to increase the hostility of other evil creatues in the area. But did he actually tell those creatures what he was doing, and what they should look for? Again, the actions of the Wight that took the hobbits seem to indicate it was doing its own thing, evil in itself, but not necessarily in lock step with the goals of the Witch-king.