Elwe Singollo

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Groin

If Thingol was really smart when it came to Beren and Luthien he would have just sayed no.

Do you really think Beren and Luthien would've taken no for an answer? In any case, no was what he said too. He did not make a serious suggestion that in order to win his bride Beren would have to fetch him the Silmaril he lusted after. He might as well have said, 'go fetch me the moon and you can marry Luthien', for "not all the power of the Noldor, before the siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining jewels of Fëanor. For they were set in the Iron Crown, and treasured in Angband above all wealth; and Balrogs were about them, and countless swords, and strong bars, and unassailable walls, and the dark majesty of Morgoth"

It was, in other words, a task impossible beyond hope.

Now I´m not saying Thingol acted in an exemplary way but, as Galin pointed out, he was quite understandably wroth because of Beren´s prideful words and his, to Thingol, shocking intentions with Luthien, his beloved daughter. Beren the Man was not even allowed to enter the Hidden Kingdom, possibly because Thingol deemed it unwise for the two peoples to mix (which turned out to be true), and for one with such short lifespan and scant wisdom to marry his daughter was out of the question.

You forget that it was Luthien that wanted to come with him. He didn't drag her anywhere, Beren was the one who begged her to go back at first but concented when he saw how strong her love was for him. And in Beren's defence, how would it look if Beren had run off with Luthien? He would have been considered a coward and a scoundrel for running of with the King of Doraith's daughter and would have no doubt been hunted to the ends of the earth by Thingol.

But once Beren realised that Luthien was coming along with him no matter what, don't you think it was a tad irresponsible taking her to the very court of Morgoth, from where she was not likely to ever return; and the Dark Lord apparently had intentions with her that went beyond slaying or imprisoning her. Would it not have been wiser, and less selfish and stubborn, to forsake the quest altogether and live with Luthien in the woods as she suggested, or simply accept Thingol's no? Perhaps he would soften in time (after all, which father can resist a pouting daughter, determined to have her way).

Originally Posted by Groin

Actually Thingol wasn't that great a king with keeping his people safe, skip spence. It was all Melian's doing with her enchanted girdle that kept Doraith from destruction.

Like I said, Melian's aid can't really be held against him. Does a leader have to do everything himself to be considered great? He also had capable wardens such as Beleg and Mablung, doing a lot to keep Doriath safe. Did that make Thingol less great?

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

My only argument: in my mind, Thingol is just as far below Melian as Beren is below Luthien. Beren is described as the greatest Man who ever walked in Middlearth, and Thingol as the greatest Elf, save perhaps Feanor

I do not fail to see the irony here. Yet there are differences too. Thingol did not go to Manwe's throne on Taniquetil to proclaim that no power in the world could keep him from the treasure he desired.

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

I honestly can't remember the first point at which Thingol learns about the Oath of Feanor and the Kinslaying. Because if he knew about that oath, why on earth would he have had Beren go after the Silmaril? The Silm specifically states that when he pronounced Beren's mission, Thingol "wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared in the curse of Mandos." And his possession of the Silmaril, later on (which killed him), when he certainly knows about the oath, just seems petty and greedy, to me.

I can't remember just when he learned the full truth about the oath, but as I explained above, that's irrelevant really. Thingol had no way of knowing, save by Melian's foresight possibly, that the Oath could have anything to do with his dismissal of Beren. He had no intention of selling his daughter for a Silmaril, as there was no fear or hope that Beren could ever obtain one in his mind. If he got killed trying seemed to have mattered little to him though.

As for his later refusal to give up the Silmaril to the Fëanorians, I agree that he probably should have done so. Yet, the Silmaril had this power over the owner, and if Thingol is to be blamed for this, so should Luthien, Beren, Dior and even Eönwe Herald of Manwe, who also possessed the Silmaril (or two) and yet refused to hand them over to the sons of Fëanor. Can't you understand old Greycloak's reluctance to hand over the Jewel that Luthien and Beren (whom he now loved) won to the cost of so much suffering, hand it over to the haughty and uncompromising murderers of his kin? I certainly can.

And yes, the possession of the Silmaril led to his death, but don't forget, he was murdered in cold blood by the Dwarves which he certainly did not deserve although this part of the story is shady since JRRT never rewrote it to come in accordance to the later legendarium, as Galin explained in his very informative post. CT had to fill out the blanks himself.

[Groin Redbeard]

I'll focus mainly on the judgement he makes with Beren and Luthien since besides that (and the matter with the Dwarves) I think he was a good king, though not the best.

Originally Posted by skip spence

But once Beren realised that Luthien was coming along with him no matter what, don't you think it was a tad irresponsible taking her to the very court of Morgoth, from where she was not likely to ever return; and the Dark Lord apparently had intentions with her that went beyond slaying or imprisoning her. Would it not have been wiser, and less selfish and stubborn, to forsake the quest altogether and live with Luthien in the woods as she suggested, or simply accept Thingol's no? Perhaps he would soften in time (after all, which father can resist a pouting daughter, determined to have her way).

No, I don't think it was irrisponsible at all, I think it would have been foolish to try anything but his best to try and get it. As for forsaking the quest, Beren gave his word that he would get it, this sadly has lost its meaning in todays world, but a man's word is his bond. How could we view Beren as the great heroe he is if he turned tale and ran away with a king's daughter if it was the "smart thing to do?"

Like I said, Melian's aid can't really be held against him. Does a leader have to do everything himself to be considered great? He also had capable wardens such as Beleg and Mablung, doing a lot to keep Doriath safe. Did that make Thingol less great?

I do not think that it makes his leadership any less, but I do think that it makes him less great if he solely relies upon the power of others to protect his kingdom. What great deads has Thingol ever done on the battlefield to earn the rank as a great king (and I truly am asking that as a question not as a retoricle question)? If a king does not fight, especially in those days, for his people what right does he have to lead them?

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I do not fail to see the irony here. Yet there are differences too. Thingol did not go to Manwe's throne on Taniquetil to proclaim that no power in the world could keep him from the treasure he desired.

Haha. Point taken. Though I would quibble that Thingol would have declared it before Yavanna. I'm totally fascinated with Melian and Thingol's inequality on the terms of gender role-reversal:

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I do not think that it makes his leadership any less, but I do think that it makes him less great if he solely relies upon the power of others to protect his kingdom. What great deeds has Thingol ever done on the battlefield to earn the rank as a great king (and I truly am asking that as a question not as a rhetorical question)? If a king does not fight, especially in those days, for his people what right does he have to lead them?

I would personally never argue that Thingol was a poor king because he didn't physically fight for his people: but I agree that Tolkien places emphasis on heroism based on battle. Finrod, who died defending Beren from Sauron, was described as the "fairest and most beloved of the children of Finwe," because he went out of his way to aid a near-hopeless quest. Fingolfin, who fought Morgoth in single combat, was the "most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old," and not just the Noldor.

The point about Thingol is that he's not heroic, not by any standard. He was wise, proud, protective of his people, ostensibly well-intentioned, and thoughtful, but not heroic. His death, unlike that of most of the Elven-kings, makes no mention of his greatness: only that he was the last living Elf in Middlearth to have seen the light of the Trees. I hate to marginalize Thingol as a symbol, but... he does a much better job representing the dying ideals of the perfect Middlearth than a progressive movement towards unity between the races of Elves, Men, and Dwarves.

[Galin]

The later version of the death of Thingol was never written though, and it was, it appears, possibly to be in a battle → the bare bones (noted by JRRT) seem to be that Thingol was to be lured outside, or induced to go to war beyond his borders, and slain in some manner by Dwarves.

In the very early long prose tale Tinwelint was ambushed while hunting (while resting during a hunt), and Mablung and the King fell side by side after a long bitter fight. Naugladur swept off the king's head after he was dead, for it was said he would not dare to go near Tinwelint's sword nor Mablung's axe (an earlier version states that the King was borne down by numbers and then slain by Naugladur). A direction for a seemingly new detail was that the Nauglafring caught in bushes and held the King.

Anyway (alas again) there's no later long prose version of Thingol's death, and even Quenta Silmarillion and the Annals are lacking here with respect to updated material.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Heh. And, besides Galin's new example, um... as I was looking back at "Of the Sindar" I found the short section where Thingol amasses an army and leaves Doriath to come to the aid of Denethor and the Elves of Ossiriand. The text specifically says "Bitterly his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them in heaps...." Then, after realizing that Denethor was dead and that there was no more help for the Green-elves, Thingol withdrew his forces to Menegroth and had Melian put out her Girdle to protect Doriath.

Read it whatever way you want (Thingol himself slew heaps of Orcs, or his men did), the suggestion is obvious: Thingol once tried the warlike way, but was too much of a pragmatist to continue it.

Going to prove only one thing: I need to read more closely before I post. Kthxbai.

[Eol Galvorn]

I believe, at least in the Silm, that Thingol represents somewhat of an opposition to the thinking of the kings of the Noldor. In war the Sindar were considerably less skilled than the Noldor, which can be seen by the state that Beleraind is in when the Noldor first arrive. He knows his forces are no match for the armies of Angband in open war, thus he takes a more conservative approach. It is his prerogative to preserve what he already has, rather than conquest for more (at least until it comes to the Silmaril itself, which I don't think he ever seriously intended to lay hands on.)
Those elf kings most honored of the first age followed his precedent by creating their own Hidden Kingdoms, Gondolin and Nargothrond, the later of which is directly inspired by Menengroth. It's as if Turgon and Felagund thought Thingol (as apposed to the sons of Feanor, or Fingolfin) was the wisest of kings, at least so far as defending their people against the coming onslaught of the north.
Is the greatness of a king judged wholly by his prowess on the battlefield or the conquest over the enemies of his people, or is his greatness found in his love and defense of his people against strife, and preservation of their culture in the face of invasion (by both the forces of Angband and the Noldor, but also the migration of men?)