Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Diamond18]

Lommy will die. Narration in a short bit.

[Diamond18]

The Lonely Hearts Club had indeed descended into a lonely hotel full of distrustful people. Not romantic at all, despite the large number of endearments being bandied back and forth. No love was to be found this day, at least not on the surface, and at the end, one young lady by the name of Thinlomien was doomed to die.

Above it all, in a cloudy palace in the sky, was one who watched the goings on with delicious amusement and great hilarity. For it was she who had set out The Task which killed Diamond and disrupted the mortals. Venus, goddess of love, and orchestrator of mischief, took delight in every accusation and manipulation. In the end, her Lovers did well, for Lommy was no servant of Venus.

The Lonely Hearts tied up the young maiden and stabbed her though the heart. She slumped down and bled onto the floor, but no one among them shed a tear or stepped forward to caress her dying form. After a few awkward moments in which nothing momentous happened, they buried her in the garden and shuffled off to bed, exhausted.

But some among them, did not sleep....

It is now Night.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Legate
Kitanna
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Rikae
Mac
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eönwë
Lalaith
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)

[Diamond18]

The next morning at the Remote Romantic Retreat dawned sunny and clear. A perfect day for strolling through the garden, lounging on the beach, and getting to know the other singles. But, alas, such leisurely activities were not to be on the agenda for this day.

Two less Lonely Heart Clubmembers came down to the breakfast table that morning. Legate and Lalaith where each absent. They were found, later, each in their separate bedrooms, alone and dead in their lonely beds. Both had been stabbed through the heart, and their blood ran red, staining the sheets.

Let the paranoia commence.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Kitanna
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
Rikae
Mac
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eönwë
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)

[Rikae]

Two deaths, and no mention of a ranger save. Can we hope that we only have two lover pairs among us? Two pairs against each other, as well as the rest of the village, would make for an unbalanced game, though.

As for Legate and Lalaith, the first thought that comes to my mind is that both look like classic wolf-kills - players who weren't much suspected, thus unlikely to be lynched, and who leave little trail... maybe there's more to it I'm missing, though.

Now, Sally - I'll have you know, dearie, I don't much appreciate what I see as attempts to intimidate and pressure me into conformity! I vote as I please, thank you very much, and I find the artificial narrowing of the field to the first few people with multiple votes a suspicious, or at least dangerous, move.
In this game, time zones are obviously a major factor. Americans (although not so much those of us on the east coast) are going to find it far easier to be around at the deadline. I don't think that means that we can suppose there is an evil conspiracy among Americans to vote without the rest of the village's input.
(If there is, you're in on it! )
I don't find you suspicious just yet, love - only a bit misguided. Shasta may well be buttering me up - he seems to be following my suspicions a bit.
Well, I suppose we won't see much activity here until after I've gone to bed (even though I'm staying up far too late already for #$@# midterms...) - good night, USA, good morning, Europe, play nice and all that.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Two deaths, and no mention of a ranger save. Can we hope that we only have two lover pairs among us? Two pairs against each other, as well as the rest of the village, would make for an unbalanced game, though.

As for Legate and Lalaith, the first thought that comes to my mind is that both look like classic wolf-kills - players who weren't much suspected, thus unlikely to be lynched, and who leave little trail... maybe there's more to it I'm missing, though.

Now, Sally - I'll have you know, dearie, I don't much appreciate what I see as attempts to intimidate and pressure me into conformity! I vote as I please, thank you very much, and I find the artificial narrowing of the field to the first few people with multiple votes a suspicious, or at least dangerous, move.
In this game, time zones are obviously a major factor. Americans (although not so much those of us on the east coast) are going to find it far easier to be around at the deadline. I don't think that means that we can suppose there is an evil conspiracy among Americans to vote without the rest of the village's input.
(If there is, you're in on it! )
I don't find you suspicious just yet, love - only a bit misguided. Shasta may well be buttering me up - he seems to be following my suspicions a bit.
Well, I suppose we won't see much activity here until after I've gone to bed (even though I'm staying up far too late already for #$@# midterms...) - good night, USA, good morning, Europe, play nice and all that.

Can't stay and chat but I had to tell you. Your post just made my day. (Granted it's 1:30 in the morning so I haven't done much yet, but it amused me. How are you so perky at this time of night?)


Sorry. Off to write a paper, gorrammit. Back when I'm awake.


P.S. Lallie and Legate, especially the former. Bwah?


Discuss amongst yourselves!


EDIT: X'd with Cabbie. Mehbe. I'm not sure; I should have been paying more attention.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

How are you so perky at this time of night?)

Coffee.
*yawn*

Originally Posted by Brinn

Legate I'm more curious about. He had the second most amount of posts and was getting plenty of attention...so why kill him?

An awful lot of the attention he was getting seemed to run along the lines of "Legate is smart and wise and all-good and all-knowing and we should bow down and worship him in grovelling admiration." as far as I could see.
Or, for another possibility, perhaps the lovers are hopeless romantics who thought he couldn't stand to live without Lommy?

Originally Posted by Mac

I think Rikae is too quick to discard the possibility that anything useful can be learned from Lalaith's and Legate's deaths. I will have a look at them later today.

Probably true, studmuffin,, but that's all I was able to come up with - not to mention I generally don't believe a lot can be learned from kills.

I suppose it is possible we have three sets of lovers, and two picked the same person. A wacky idea suggested to me by the Venus scenario in the narration also was that the number of lover pairs might be increasing, somehow, and we could expect greater carnage in the nights to come. Now, that would be devilish - if that's not what Di's doing, perhaps I'll try it someday myself...

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I am slightly wary (but not suspicious) of Rikae (her reasons for mistrusting Mac didn't have much by way of a foundation), Aganzir (too excited), Lommy (she always bears watching, but I have little say beyond that).

You have to understand the way I am, mein Herr
A tiger is a tiger, not a lamb, mein Herr

Gollum, do elaborate to me how I am too excited.
Someone said on day 1 that I seemed jumpy and then you just came and repeated it. When I asked for reasons, you listed everything I had done by then; speaks much, accuses people &c...
And now, no real suspects, but you're slightly wary of people for poor reasons. Although I find Rikae suspicious myself, I think her reasons for mistrusting Mac were good enough. Besides just a moment earlier you had said you didn't understand why she was voted.
I myself can't see me as too excited. You, of course, have never played with me and don't know how I am, and therefore you should have no way of knowing if I'm excited or not. Was that the best you could come up with? Even if the person you were referring to as too excited was my top suspect, it wouldn't add anything to my suspicions of her. Sorry if I sound aggressive but that's the most stupid reason I have ever been suspected with.
Also you're wary of Lommy because she always bears watching?
It looks like you were just trying to go with the flow and pick up people you thought could be suspected later on. With weak grounds.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Agan's threat to go along, without an actual vote, looks perhaps worse. (It seems she's trying to keep things moving in that direction while avoiding any commitment herself).

It was not a threat, I was thinking aloud. I thought I said I'd prefer voting Mac but I could vote for you, too, since you already had votes so there would even be a chance I could contribute to the lynching of one of my main suspects although I had to vote so early. I changed my mind several times while time passed, but for the life in me I just can't see what's so suspicious in telling who I could possibly vote.

Originally Posted by Rikae

And, Agan, what "points"?

Hmm, I see that in the process of writing my thoughts down, they were reduced only to the following. In my opinion they were still a valid enough reason for suspicion, though.

However, Rikae's certainty that Mac has a role because she hasn't is strange. The point that Di wouldn't make them both ordos is just bad. There's a certain likelihood that two good players get a special role, but there are many others than Mac and Rikae as well - and who knows if the roles were selected randomly? In any case, it definitely isn't a point I would use against somebody, and to me it seems Rikae should know better, too. I don't find it that surprising that Lommy thought her accusations of Mac were a joke.

Originally Posted by Shasta

This kind of screams baddie to me, to be honest. :/

Then get earplugs.

Originally Posted by Rikae

About the point #2 - half serious. It is something that I thought about (not because of our strength as players, but because mods seems to love setting us against each other), but I didn't expect anyone else to take it seriously - except possibly Mac himself: I was interested in his reaction.

I am definitely not the best person to complain about half serious suspicions. Still, it would be so easy for a wolf to throw around random suspicion, get a great many different reactions from people and then say she was just testing the ice. "I didn't except anyone else to take it seriously" is in itself a veiled accusation against people who actually did.

Originally Posted by sally

A couple votes that bother me.

Gwath-->Fea. His reason is listed "because I disagree with her about Mac". Seriously? You don't agree with her so she's a wolf? Seems like fuzzy (aka furry) logic to me.

Rikae-->Agan. Just because it's spreading out the votes even more, and especially this close to the deadline. Trying to complicate things even more right before Sunset is just not cool, my dear.

It somewhat bothers me that those votes bother you. Of course I don't like being voted, especially if I'm not around to defend myself (not that Rikae or Shasta had any accusations against which I should have defended myself at that point, though), but (and I might be in the minority in this one, also) I think everybody should vote the person they suspect the most, no matter if it's close to the deadline or spreads out the votes. From Gwath I want to see more before judging him.

As for the kills, there's one thing I found worth noticing - they both were killed the same way (stabbed through the heart). I don't know if there's a team or if both/all pairs just decided to kill their victims like that, and I'm not going to speculate on it today, either. I just felt the need to point it out.

I wouldn't find it surprising if Legate was killed because of being suspected to be a lover. However, since we don't know how the killers work, I think we should be traditional and concentrate more on what the dead said than what they were possibly thought to be.

By the way, I always suspect Mac and Rikae. Always.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Or, for another possibility, perhaps the lovers are hopeless romantics who thought he couldn't stand to live without Lommy?

Rikae I love you! Let's get married!

I'll be around still for a while because Lommy came online on MSN and apparently wants to talk to me in the lack of some better company.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Rikae

An awful lot of the attention he was getting seemed to run along the lines of "Legate is smart and wise and all-good and all-knowing and we should bow down and worship him in grovelling admiration." as far as I could see.

Yet he managed to gather enough suspicion to receive two votes...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Rikae

A wacky idea suggested to me by the Venus scenario in the narration also was that the number of lover pairs might be increasing, somehow, and we could expect greater carnage in the nights to come.

Now that would be scary.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

If the seer dreams of you, you might still have a plenty of time to kill her since she probably doesn't come out after finding just one baddie. However, if another team chooses to kill you, you're dead that very night. If I was a baddie, I'd much rather get rid of the other baddies before throwing wild guesses about who the seer could be.

As well as this, the seer also has a larger chance of finding the other baddies, and getting them lynched, so this also helps the lovers (as well as the rest of the village, obviously). It just makes it easier fir them.

Still reading this page...

[McCaber]

Sorry about Day 1, folks. Apparently things happen when I'm not paying attention.

And I missed six whole pages of discussion. Great.

I didn't glean too much from a quick first readthrough. Basically that Aganzir, Lommy, Mac,and Rikae talked a lot and suspected each other, with fatal results for Lommy.

Anyway, time to think, react, talk, and listen.

[McCaber]

So I still really don't have a lot to say. I'm getting sort of an innocent reading from Aganzir. She's posted a lot and hasn't contradicted herself much from what I saw. She's been argumentive but everyone is in werewolves. Verdict: almost not guilty.

And that's the first half of the day.

EDIT: crossed with Mac

[Nogrod]

Oh Mac, you're making me feel like back at home after a few games in some strange land of paranoia where you weren't after me all the time...

On a bit more serious note, this thing where you relate to my thoughts of there being a different mindset with those who killed Lalaith vs. those who killed Legate:

Originally Posted by Legate

I'm terribly sorry, but this does sound like a wolf whose mind is a bit too much taken by the implications of an apparently different strategy of the opposing team on the thread.

I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.

So what to make of your try-out? Just back to normal "Mac will suspect Nogrod whatever the posting" or trying to see whether you could turn this into a convenient lynch-option?


But I think you raise an important point to the fore.

I have been thinking about Sally - and what Mac said links to my thoughts on Sally.

I already felt yesterDay a bit uneasy with Sally's kind of - how should one describe it - conscious, or situation-oriented posting. What I mean is that yes there was that normallish Sally-banter and the jokes and all but somehow it felt she was more conscious of the situation we had in hand than she normally is. Or at least she doesn't normally show it.

Then came this:

Originally Posted by Sally toDay

I would think, though, that lovers (if there are more than one team) would want to get rid of their competition first (because then they'd be safe during the Nights

Now defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe" looks something that just doesn't fit my general impression of what an innocent Sally would think about - or speculate about. For it sure is true that if we have different teams against each other the lovers are scared to death every Night for their rivals (I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!). The problem is, did Sally just think of that and decided to use the word "safe" (which really nails down the thing those baddies are longing for) or does she actually feel that way now?

This is a question of the way one plays (so it's not like one way is better or more intelligent than the other - going deep into speculation about how the baddies would act may derange one's thinking a lot as well). You know I do it, Lommy does it, all those who remember Roa probably remember also her insistence in that being the most effective approach... But Sally hasn't belonged to that club of players as yet and I'm afraid I have to say her few posts do look a bit bothering to me, it feels like something behind the appearance is shining through her posting.

But I'm not sure if she's my best candidate toDay. I just decided to start with her as my suspicions on her are intertwined with Mac's points.

[Nogrod]

I just couldn't bear go on re-correcting my earlier post another time so I'll just make the meaning of this sentence clear here.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

defining the wolves viewpoint as "being safe"

This should of course read: defining the wolves viewpoint as wishing to be safe. Sorry.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I will only say this. Winning a game would never be so important to me that I would as a werewolf/-penquin/-rhinoceros... kill during the Night someone I like to play with - if there are other choices (the very last Nights of a game might be different). You know it Mac as all those who have played with me.

Ah but what if there was no other choice? Like if your lover was terribly afraid of Lalaith or Legate and thought s/he wouldn't survive another day if they were left alive? There are other people you like to play with, anyway, and do you rather kill one of them than die early and be unable to play with the rest?
I don't suspect you at least for now, but your defense doesn't convince me.

Originally Posted by Nog

I've been a baddie in that kind of game long ago and it was heart-stopping!

Yeah I agree. And thanks to you, it was literally heart-stopping to me.

edit: xed with Nog

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm slightly concerned about the actions of the village so far. So many people are seeing malice in all corners.

We don't even know what we're looking for yet. Some comments, like Nogrod's recent speculation about different evil team strategies, and Macalaure's riposte, are immediately sensible to me, because they relate to the deduction of who our killers could be. How so? Because they take the facts, and they work around them. Our facts are the deaths of Legate and Lalaith.

Other comments, such as "So and so suspected me because of this, it's really creepy!" are based on absolutely nothing. Every instance of Werewolf dialogue can be interpreted in such a way that that it looks evil. It's all well and good normally, but we don't even know what resides in this village yet.

It's interesting how many people have easily accepted that Legate's enemies thought him a lover, while Lalaith's obviously thought her a nice quiet catch. I think only Aganzir really broke from this regarding Lalaith.

Kitanna's post, perfectly illustrating the above point, with its complete conformity, is almost tauntingly suspicious.

[Aganzir]

So she has only six posts thus far. She usually isn't one of the most vocal anyway, but although that's pretty little, I'm not worried yet. She has at least given some actual opinions.

I don't understand why Greenie thinks she should be worried of Legate if he plays as if he had nothing to worry about. She kind of contradicts herself there - if Legate was a baddie and had a lover, he would have to be worried about both his own and his lover's life. She agreed with me and Legate about Groin, though.

Greenie thought Rikae votes on day 1 were weird, and that she wouldn't call Fea's rule discussion suspicious since, in her opinion, that early it was as good a topic as any.

She didn't know what to think of Lommy, who looked normal (which means nothing). Later she pointed out, though, that Lommy's suspicion list was full of things like "A is suspicious because of X, but then again there's Y which makes her look innocentish." She thought Lommy was doing it in an exaggerating manner. This is the list she's talking about, and to me it doesn't look very much like exaggeration.

She said she didn't want to vote for Rikae because of how many had said they might vote her, and voted for Groin instead based almost entirely on gut-feeling. She thought he had been one of the least innocentish on day 1, and she didn't like his tone in some things.

On day 2 Greenie didn't understand sally's logic, either, when she said introducing new candidates close to deadline may increase the possibility of a last-minute bandwagon. I agree with her, but she could have said the same even if she was a baddie.
To her, it seems obvious that Lal was a kill with no traces, and Legate might have been suspected to be a lover.

Greenie seems somehow really smooth, but then again that's the way she is. It bothers me that I can't read her at all - she could go either way. Mostly she looks quite innocent, but there are some points which are a bit weird, like that Legate contradiction in her first post, and suggestion that Lommy is softening her opinions to an exaggerative degree (which I don't think she was doing). I also think Rikae's point of a baddie hiding in the open when Greenie speculated on Lal and Leg's deaths is worth at least noticing.

edit: xed with Nog & Eomer

[Macalaure]

I am rather puzzled by your reply to me, Nogrod. Firstly, I made one point against you on the second day, and you compare it to me being after you all the time in the past. That's a little bit out of proportion, don't you think? Secondly, your defense is based entirely on meta-reasons (there is no actual "in-game" defense at all) which I usually dislike. The meta is out there all the time, but it's much more enjoyable to keep it at a minimum. Was my point so well-made that you needed to bash it with the big hammer? Thirdly, instead of giving a non-meta defense of any kind, you threaten to retaliate by a rhetorical question.

I made my comment because I thought it was worth commenting on and because I thought it appropriate to poke somebody who hasn't been poked much in this game so far. You didn't respond to being poked in a very innocent-looking way...

[Brinniel]

Hmm...so two more are dead. What does this mean? Do we only have two sets of lovers among us, or is it possible that two pairs chose the same kill?

Lalaith's death isn't terribly surprising...she didn't post a lot and left little tracks. Legate I'm more curious about. He had the second most amount of posts and was getting plenty of attention...so why kill him? Did they think he was gifted or perhaps even part of another team of lovers? Of the two, I think the former would be more likely...especially since I recall Legate speculating about gifteds.

Gah, it's late and I'm tired...but I'd like to look back at yesterDay before going to bed since I know by the time I return there'll be a whole slew of posts and I'll probably be kept plenty busy catching up.

EDIT: X-ed with everyone

[Brinniel]

The Voting:

Eomer: ++Rikae (Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Rikae (Rikae 2)
Greenie: ++Groin (Rikae 2, Groin 1)
Mac: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1)
Eönwë: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1)
Lommy: ++Eomer (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1, Eomer 1)
Lalaith: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Aganzir: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Legate: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1)
Fea: ++Mac (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gollum: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gwath: ++Fea (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1)
Rikae: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Nogrod: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Shasta: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 2)
Brinn: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 4, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Sally: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 5, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)

Didn't vote: Groin, McCaber (am I missing anyone?)

Originally Posted by Sally

Just because there were two deaths and no ranger save doesn't mean there's only two teams of lovers. It's distinctly possible (at some point someone was discussing it) that if two/more teams pick the same person, only that one person dies (i.e. no repicks). Not to be a pessimist, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Yes, it's something I mentioned as well and it's certainly a possibility (though in that scenario I would guess there are no more than three pairs). But of course, we don't know whether Di has something completely different up her sleeve...which is entirely possible..

Bah, I was going to do more than just paste the vote count but I'm so sleepy.. I think I'll just go to bed now and return to share my thoughts when my head is clearer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

One post before bed (and I'm only up this late because I was typing a rehearsal report!)

Legate and Lalaith. I'm not sure at all about the latter, but I have a strong suspicion the former was targeted in hopes that he was a Lover.

As for Lommy, I wouldn't have guessed she was a plain old Lonely Heart. Guess I'm 0/1 as for right now, .

Good night (to my neighbors; good morning to those across the pond!)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Good night (to my neighbors; good morning to those across the pond!)

Good Morning!


As for the game...

Lalaith didn't really get say enough for there to be any trails there.

But then Legate was one of the most active. And if I remember correctly, he and Mac were at each others throats until quite late that Day (well, actually, more into the afternoon but we Europeans suffer from jet-lag on this island- for us it was late-ish). So in that case it could have been either Mac being very bold, and because its so obvious, thought no-one would suspect him, or more likely it could be someone framing him. Obviously I could be going down the completely wrong path, and maybe that's what the lovers want me to do.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So for all the talk of absolute carnage, two are dead? That means there is either two teams of lovers, each with a kill; or one team of four lovers, and Diamond emerges as somewhat less interested in monogamy than I might have suspected.

Or another option that I'm not seeing right now. And I'm afraid I won't be around until much later as I have work... er, I mean, I'll be busying myself constructing romantic poesy.

If there are teams, do they all know who each other are? Then they could try setting each other up with the kills. But if they don't know their enemies then this line of speculation does the village no good (I think).

What may be more useful is playing the percentage game, in choosing those who were not involved with, say, Lalaith, and selecting a pair from the two of them. This assumes that Lalaith and Legate were killed to leave no trail, which is often agreed upon as being at least 'not a bad method'.

Ach, it still seems tricksome today.

As for my vote yesterday, Rikae got it spot on. Pot and stirring. That's all.

[satansaloser2005]

Sorry to pop back in, but I wanted to put this out there.



Just because there were two deaths and no ranger save doesn't mean there's only two teams of lovers. It's distinctly possible (at some point someone was discussing it) that if two/more teams pick the same person, only that one person dies (i.e. no repicks). Not to be a pessimist, but I thought it was worth mentioning.


I'm really off now. (My post originally said "they're were two deaths and no ranger kill doesn't mean they're only two....". So yeah, I'm going to bed when I get finished.)