were wolves

[Aganzir]

Oh yes, but also animals in this world can communicate - body language, smells, such... And there are people who claim to understand "animal languages". Wargs didn't seemingly speak in any human language, which werewolves apparently could do.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Since the events of The Hobbit is reffered to in LotR, I think it should be regarded as good a guide to ME as LotR. . .

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Oh yes, but also animals in this world can communicate - body language, smells, such... And there are people who claim to understand "animal languages". Wargs didn't seemingly speak in any human language, which werewolves apparently could do.

No it was not a human language. . . It was a warg language! Anyways Tolkien makes it clear that they talk and not just comunicate via body language and so on, so I think you are grasping at straws.

Anyways we are getting way off track are we not? (my fault I know)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Anyways we are getting way off track are we not? (my fault I know)

Perhaps, though, it is not getting off track at all. It is a good method of philosophy to try and determine what a thing is by determining what it is not.

It is, however, also a good philosophic practice to distinguish between traits of the subject in question that are necessary to it, or essential, and what is just accidental (not in the sense of being mere chance, but in the sense of non-essential... like my eyeballs. They aren't essential to my existence, but they aren't just haphazardly associated with me. But I digress).

In this vein, I'll note that while it does seem to be a valid point to note that the Wargs speak their own tongue, speaking any sort of tongue at all is not a trait limited to lupine species, but seems to be a bit more common in Middle-earth. There is, of course, the dubious fox that passes by the sleeping Hobbits, but there's also the Eagles, and, possibly, the Mearas. The relationship between Eorl and Felaróf, if not including any speech, certainly includes communication.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In this vein, I'll note that while it does seem to be a valid point to note that the Wargs speak their own tongue, speaking any sort of tongue at all is not a trait limited to lupine species, but seems to be a bit more common in Middle-earth. There is, of course, the dubious fox that passes by the sleeping Hobbits, but there's also the Eagles, and, possibly, the Mearas. The relationship between Eorl and Felaróf, if not including any speech, certainly includes communication.

In The Hobbit, if I remember correctly, the Wargs spoke a snarling, growling, guttural language that only Gandalf could understand (while he was up in the trees with Bilbo and the Dwarves).

In regards to speaking, sentient creatures in Middle-earth, one needs to add Huan the Hound, the dragons, and several bird species (the crebain reported to Saruman, the ravens to the Dwarves and even Bard had a chat with a bird who got valuable info from elsewhere).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

We have wolves and Wargs, and Werewolves who are actually spirits in wolf form, and traditional werewolves -- which the original poster was asking for.

It's all a bit confusing.

Considering Tolkien's affinity with northern myths, I'm sure he held the wolf in high regard. Also taking into account the etymology of 'Warg' (check the Faroese in the signature ) it seems fair to say that Wargs and wolves are not separate things.

There are no documented traditional werewolves: whether involving changing shape at the full moon or utilising a magic wolf-hide.

There are particular and generally potent spirits who are placed into the Warg form. See The Silmarillion.

So, two groups.

But, as has been pointed out by Tuor, the tale of Beorn should give anyone enough scope to write about a traditional werewolf in Middle-earth.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

No it was not a human language. . . It was a warg language! Anyways Tolkien makes it clear that they talk and not just comunicate via body language and so on, so I think you are grasping at straws.

I would have said that to me it doesn't really make a difference, the main point is that they communicate with one another and Gandalf can understand it. And since we are talking about The Hobbit, I wouldn't take it for granted that when Tolkien says speak he really means speaking instead of just some way of communication, but Morth's post kind of destroys my theory.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

In this vein, I'll note that while it does seem to be a valid point to note that the Wargs speak their own tongue, speaking any sort of tongue at all is not a trait limited to lupine species, but seems to be a bit more common in Middle-earth.

Yes - I recall Gandalf saying he once knew many animal languages, and so suggests also Frodo's lament for him. However, I understand it that (some? all?) werewolves could talk human languages - if a random person had approached Thangorodrim's doors, she would have understood Carcharoth's questions about what she was doing there.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

But, as has been pointed out by Tuor, the tale of Beorn should give anyone enough scope to write about a traditional werewolf in Middle-earth.

I'm totally at a loss when it comes to Beorn. If I was a gamemaster, though, I probably wouldn't let any player take for a character a Beorning with the ability to change shape. It sounds like playing a half-elven character. Wrong.

[White_Knight]

wow. that whole discussion I found was wayy beyond my understanding of tolkens world. I am happy that the enthusiasm found here is at such a high level. I am disappointed that we have determined that were wolfs did not in fact exist, though wargs are a pretty cool concept. I like them. But thanks for all the information- it was all extremely helpful.

Also you have all made it clear that if I am to take a real part in these forums I am going to need to brush up on all the books I think

;-)