The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

First, Tolkien's conception of Sauron as inherently good (or not evil) in the beginning does not conflict with pre-Vatican II theology. To infer that Catholicism ever harbored a duality of good and evil (as would be the implication had Sauron or Morgoth been evil in the beginning) would be in error, as that was heretical back to the time of the Arian heresy as well as the Albigenses in the Middle-ages.

Actually, what I was really referring to was my specific experience with a Catholic upbringing, which can vary widely, depending on the priests and nuns doing the teaching. The words of doctrine can be the same, but the impact will differ depending on how they are presented and the commentary and interpretation that follows. The clergy who taught at my church and school were very much of the mind that we are all sinners, sinners, sinners, evil wicked things in our very creation, and we must constantly strive for what they presented as an impossible goal of redemption. I suspect that Tolkien's teachers had a somewhat less "doom and gloom" presentation of Original Sin and its relevance to his personal life and ability to achieve salvation. But because of my own rearing, it astonished me to read those words in his writing. My parish priests and nuns certainly didn't believe that nothing was evil in its beginning, and it truly amazed me to hear another Catholic say otherwise. Still does, and I've long since left the Church.

Didn't mean to start a theological bruhaha; I should've been a bit clearer that I was speaking from a very personal viewpoint.

Second, I do not believe it was accidental, nor do I think the quote "a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred" infers any accident whatsoever. What it refers to is a surrender of choice by the Valar to the all-consuming power of Eru. In that remission of leadership, the Valar gave up any and all detente, cajoling or pleas to Numenor for a final verdict by Eru, who chose once and for all to divide Valinor from Arda and inflict the severest of all penalties upon Numenor. But even in his wrath, Eru appears as Yahweh to Noah, saving the faithful under Elendil (which I believe differentiates Atalante from Atlantis as there were no survivors in the Greek tradition).

In fact, in the same letter, Tolkien does refer to the "Noachic" situation of Elendil and the Faithful. And when he says "change of plan," I wonder if he might not mean "the plan as the Valar understood it," or perhaps even "the Valar's plan," since they were the ones who came up with the idea of fashioning Numenor as a reward. The other time Tolkien refer to a "change of plan" is, I believe, elsewhere in the same letter, when he talks about the resurrection of Gandalf, and Eru's widening of a plan which began as the Valar's. In both cases, Eru intervened to change the situation after it had failed, in one way or another. The magnitude of the necessary intervention is, perhaps, in correlation with the magnitude of the error of those involved -- or perhaps of the plan itself.